question, right? >> what happens is is that they elephant as relevant as he is, right? i think that by all these witnesses speaking to the issues hill, speak about really build him up, and that's gonna be the deal. >> interesting. >> any sorry, 34 counts all about a document of one kind or another. you think this is the week that we will see these dots? documents that are being used to charge these crimes. >> we have to we have to i thought they were coming last week, but there are definitely coming this week. these are the charges they have to get these documents into evidence and start part explaining to the jury why they were fraudulent first, but more importantly, why trump is responsive to that before after cohen, do you get the documents in before four? i think they got to do it today. >> all right. jennifer, yes. soon as joey jackson, we confirmation on that. >> all right. thank you all for joining us. this has been cnn news central are special live coverage of the trial of donald trump begins right you were

looking live at 100 centre street here in downtown manhattan, where minute ago, donald trump made that. >> now familiar with walk past cameras and into that courtroom where his future and maybe his freedom are on the line. minutes a possible ruling from a judge on whether or not trump violence related a gag order. again plus the next witness, the prosecution plans to use to convince a jury of mr. trump's peers that he is a criminal. i'm kaitlan collins in new york you're watching cnn's special live coverage of donald trump's hush money trial and i have jim acosta and washington. >> we begin week three of testimony with the question, who will go on? >> for oath as the prosecution's tenth witness? >> manhattan prosecutors have sped through their presentation of facts of friday hit a dramatic high point when the government called hope hicks

stan next to the former white house communications director, testified through tears, leaving an emotional impression that may pierce trump's defense. the jury has already heard from multiple we'll other big name witnesses. it leaves a onetime trump confidant as well as the adult film actress at the center of the alleged scheme as the only two main characters who have yet to make take an appearance. michael cohen and stormy daniels pair are no doubt important, but hasn't offense done enough to make the jury question their credibility or as the prosecution done, the equally important task of convincing the jury that donald trump attempted to keep these stories hidden because he wanted to help his election highs let's get right so cnn's kaitlan collins, my colleague back in new york for some breaking news, kaitlan yeah, jim, we just got that decision from the judge on whether nine donald trump has in fact active violated his gag order again, and the judge has decided that yes, donald trump has now violated for the 10th time and he has now been found in criminal contempt.

>> yet again, it was a historic decision when the judge decided that he had violated the initial time, prosecutors argued he did so for more on for more occasions. and now, at the minute that donald trump walked in to this courtroom this morning, the judge said that yes, he had violated it and he said going forward, if donald trump violated again, he will consider jail time. >> i've got seen in chief legal affairs correspondent, paula reid and karen friedman, agnifilo, the former for cheap assistant district attorney in the manhattan da's office here with me and paula. >> this is really notable because the judge is saying, i don't want to have to put you in jail, but you're walking up to that line. line essentially. yeah. clearly, the $1,000 per contempt violation find that he has received so far is not really working as a deterrent. here, the judge said the magnitude of such a decision is not lost on me. and at the end of the day though, i have a job to do. now, trump is shaking his head as they're handing down a paper copy of this ruling. >> now this contempt finding this comes after last week, prosecutors argue that trump's

had violated his gag order for additional times. >> the judge had already found that he had violated it nine times, and based on today, he says, i'm finding you in criminal contempt for the 10th time i'm it appears again, based on his live updates, we're getting from inside the court that the judge only found him in contempt for one of the additional alleged violations. now, the judge saying to trump your continued willful violations of this court's lawful order constitute a direct attack on the rule of law, truly extraordinary. kaitlan, that here you have a judge threatening to jail former president in the united states if he cannot abide by this gag order. and what's different is the last time he made clear that this was an option, karan, but now the judge's directly saying it to donald trump right now inside that courtroom, as donald trump, we were told by reporters inside the room is looking at this, judge, you saying, i don't want to have to take this step, but this is going to be the next option. >> if you continue to violate this. yeah unfortunately, those statute that is at issue here the contempt statute, only allows certain options to the

court and he said, look, $1,000 to certain people could be enough to make somebody stopped. >> but for someone who's a billionaire, thousand dollars per violation is nothing. and at a certain point, i have no other options then to potentially put you in jail. he doesn't want to do do that. he's clearly expressed that he doesn't want to have to put donald trump in jail, but he has several options. for example, he could put them in for a few hours there is a holding cell behind in the courtroom that on the 15th floor at 100 centre street, he could put them in for the day. he could put them in over lunch. he could do it like that as a graduated step. towards putting them in overnight as he make the decision on what that looks like because he made clear that he's constrained on what the fines can be. he can only decide $1,000 per find, which he said clearly, just now is not stopping him. i mean, how would he decide how much jail time that would be? >> you can take into consideration several things when every year sentencing someone which is essentially

what he'd be doing because he find he found him beyond a reasonable doubt to have violated this gag order willfully, even though it's technically civil so he'll take certain things into consideration how egregious is it? how many times does he do that sort of thing? >> so when you're reading through yeah, sometimes violation what i'm reading to the judge there's actual decision and one of the arguments that trump made has made consistently throughout this is that the gag order is not fair. it's asymmetrical. he cannot, for example, attack witnesses in this hey, it's like michael cohen or stormy daniels, but they in particular michael cohen, have attacked him repeatedly and the judge did leave the door open and one of the previous proceedings to saying, yeah, look, you have zero point and interestingly here the judge says that with two of the reference alleged violations that had to do with michael cohen the judge said the court cannot find beyond a reasonable doubt the defendant in statements referenced were not pulled protected political speech in response to political attacks by michael cohen here the judge is giving trump's

somewhat of a wind that two of these alleged violations, comments he made directed at michael cohen, more protected political speech because the judge has acknowledged that michael cohen repeatedly, consistently attacks the form former president. now he's a defendant to a different standard for him. but here, the judge ruling that is protected political speech, something trump's lawyers have argued repeatedly and up until now on successfully because they were basically arguing that if donald trump can't go out and respond to someone like michael cohen when he's todd blanche was reading directly from michael cohen's tweets what he has said than podcasts and videos as a reason that trump should be able to respond to that, that he's not just seeking out michael cohen specifically to attack him. exactly. and they said, look, this is it's so much ball this guy attacks trump all the time. they argue he's made a career out of it, which i think is supported by michael cohen's recent body of work. it's podcast is book, right, revenge to what makes them a default one? witness. but here, the judge finding that he cannot find beyond a reasonable doubt that this was not protected political speech. so while

trump is me right now being threatened by jail has been found in criminal contempt, and at least two of these vials relations judge agreed with his lawyers. >> what about the fact that trump has continued to talk about this gag order in ways that just it's not true. i mean, just going into the courtroom just now he was complaining saying that he was being ask questions about this case, this weekend, and he could not answer those questions from reporters. i'm not sure which ones specifically because he was posting about this all weekend, karen. >> i mean, he can still we'll talk about this case. he just can't directly attack witnesses. the prosecution team, the judge's family, at any can't comment on the jury exactly. >> he could talk about the case. he can comment on the judge himself. he can talk about alvin bragg himself. >> he can respond to it sounds like things that attacks by michael cohen so he comes also testify in his own defense. >> i heard someone asked him as he was going in, are you going to testify said, well, i'm under a gag order again, and the judges made it very clear that the gag order only talks about statements made outside of court. he can absolutely have a right to testify and take the stand in his own

defense. >> and i should know we are now finding out who the next witness is going to be just it is geoff macone is a former forward trump organization controller. we were waiting to see who it was going to be next on the witness stand to follow hope hicks. and now we've just learned from from the judge, load trump's team seems to be complaining that they did not get enough advanced notice of who today's witness was going to be yeah, that's been a ronnie complaint all along, but it sounds caitlin, what they're doing here is they're not going from blockbuster witness to blockbuster witness. >> we saw the week and last week with hope hicks. they're not doing that again stormy daniels and michael cohen. all right. off the bat this monday morning, but kaitlan with the breaking news now at the courthouse. thank you. laura coates, let me go to you first. i mean, we're now hearing the judge raised the prospect of jail time for donald trump. has karen was saying a few moments, it could be an hour, it could be a couple of hours. might not be overnight, but he's talking jail. he is i want to go to my tablet here because i want to explain to people a little bit about the timing of this and why it is the judge is saying, look, you've been warned

before, this happened, before actually had my order before i'm going to put this up here for everyone. >> they can see and it's the gag order. >> sayyed, i want to look at because you had the original gag order that was issued on this date here on of course, march 26, then you have the different dates where he was alleged to have occurred. have these violations in red and the 10th to 13th, the 15th, anytime he's are multiple dates, by the way, jim, then you have these other due date, three guys in question. you had the 22nd, third, and the 25th there these all happen though, and the allegations occurred before this important date here april 30th, which is when you had the first ruling of the $9,000 and finds 1,000 for each of the actual posts, which is the maximum they can get and a post he didn't have the requisite amount of warning. that's why this is important here. and he says, look had these happened essentially before i, after i've given this warning, it's a whole different ball game, but now it can escalate. beyond that, we just part of the reason why we're so concerned about the idea of, well, why did you wait so long to have won the hearing about these issues and to make your

decision because it can do bubbly. he could have had other dates he violated as well. so you can see it maybe a graduate now there's notice happening whether that will be the deterrent or an invitation to martyrdom is a different story. >> yeah, and i do want to talk about the politics of this with john jay, me and christen in a moment, but let you first what does the judge gain? >> out of putting trump in jail for an hour? >> is that going to curb his behavior? i mean, he's really in a box here. the judge a little bit. >> the judge has a remarkably limited set of enforcement tools at his disposal here as laura was just laying out all he can do is put these sort of ineffectual $1,000 fines in place? or the big punishment of locking donald trump up even for a few hours, which is fraught politically, it would worry me what that would do to the jury. they would certainly know that he had been locked up for some reason or other, but i think the timeline is crucial here, as laura was pointing out, because while i share in the criticism of the judge for taking too long to hold these hearings and to issue these rulings. it sort of looks like

it's working a little bit, right ever since the judge came out last week and said, if i have to, i will lock you up trump has not violated the gag order. now he doesn't deserve a gold medal for that or anything. but it's been a solid week and changed since donald trump is actually violated the gag order. any now seems to understand what he can and cannot do. and let's all keep mine this gag order is extraordinarily narrow down. trump those those pre-core raffa that he goes on every day where he says the judge is out to get me these charges are bogus. the di has bad motives false as they are. yeah, they are allowed within the gag order. so let's hope in the safe for the sake of efficiency moving forward that we've reached some sort of understanding here. and the judge's threats are working we do have to point out he is not telling the truth. >> the gag order. he continued to say that this morning just a few moments ago because i'm under a gag order, i can do this you can you can testify. you can tell your side of the story if you want. >> oddly, the gag order allows him to lie about the gagewa exactly. andrew your thoughts i think it's almost impossible to predict how anything will

affect donald trump's behavior. >> so that's, that's the wild. >> but you have to give him credit for not having violated the gag order since we got the ruling down. so we'll see where that goes. >> but i do think that judgment sean has proven himself to be a guy who will make the tough choice. >> so if pushed to what he believes is the edge of this cliff, i think you could see jail time coming, how he administers that amount of time or when that jail time has served are all kind of up in the air. i actually think a post-trial sentence, if you will, is the most likely alternative because it pushes some of those trial impact, jury impact issues. all he could say i'm gonna do this to you, but you're gonna have to wait. >> we're all gonna have to wait to see them it also gives him an opportunity to change his mind before that de com in important for that too it does it fall quickly? is that the judge refused to allow this jury to know about the violations that what had been requesting the prosecution to say you've already held him in contempt. can we if he takes the stand, can we present that

to this jury? and the judge said no because this jury is in front of me, it'd be unduly prejudicial. they probably know they respect me. they're used to me if i tell them i have told me as a violation that might hold too much weight. >> yeah. i mean, but john king i mean, if we get to that point where the judge says you're you're going back, you're going back there for an hour or two we made i mean, this was obviously a huge deal when we saw donald trump get that mug shot down, down and fulton county, i mean, this would be it would be an historic moment. however, you slice doric multiple legal perspective and it would be another crossroads moment from how this gets politically processed. it in the country for the suburban swing voters for the nikki haley voters who could well decide the presidential election come november. what do they think of that a former president put in jail for contempt of court? his own supporters tree, you know, trump would do you cover trump for a long time? trump would say that democrat judge soros, prosecutor joe biden, gestapo, he used the word gestapo just in recent days about this. that's part of his smoke and mirrors to get everyone to look

over here. this is politics, this is it's politics, this is politics throughout to get me. >> so they don't look over here. we're hoping says this was a crisis mode for the campaign we had to do this to shut this down. that is part of trump's communication strategy, which has been wildly effective for keeping his base. i think the question is, were six months from the election now five months we've actually now as we as we weren't walk down that path, does this get processed? and trump uses the grievance to get people to stay over here, especially his supporters. but my question is, as this trial plays out, if he actually goes into jail, is that the bridge too far for republicans who don't like donald trump, but are tribal republicans? thank joe biden, whether he's too old or don't like his policy, whatever, who are going to hold their nose and vote for trump. those are the people who could decide the election. is that too far if they see a judge find them in contempt again and ultimately put them in court? >> yes. jaime there was the debate that was going on has been going on for months. >> if it's been reflected in some of the polling, if he is a convicted of a felony of

whatever that might affect the way people look at him. and in terms of whether they want to vote for him again, are not as john was saying a few moments ago, there was the mug they made t-shirts out of that. they made mugs out of it, and so on. >> jails, jails, jail. that to john's point, we don't know yet. the base is the base a lot of people who are not the base just think these trials are unfair. you hear that as well? do they go out and vote for him as a result, do they sit on their hands and not vote we have some months to figure that out. there's one other thing i was spoken to people who know judge merchan very well. he is known for judicial temperament. he runs a tight courtroom i do not take it lightly when he says mr. trump, it's important you understand last thing i want to do is put you in jail. but then he says, your continued willful violations of this court's lawful order

constitute a boat direct attack on the rule of law we have heard that before. there's one other thing the lawyers can speak to this that judge merchan can do yeah he may not look if he is if trump is convicted, he may not look on his behavior at kindly and you want to connect with just what you just wonder if we've reached a tipping point and people will say, you know what? the shot was. one thing, once a former frozen united states goes into jail, even if it's worth an hour, that changes things and i just wonder if it changes things a lot. art guys say with kristen will get your taken all this in just a few moments, a direct attack on the rule laws. jamie was just saying a few moments ago, the judge in donald trump's hush money trial finding the former president in contempt. again, talking about potential jail time if the former president continues to do what he does are more special live coverage of minutes, say what you're watching now they're shooting

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april 22 that's yogi was pick so fast, 95% democrats the areas mostly all democrat. you think of it as just a purely democrat area. it's a very unfair situation that i can tell you trump as a result of this gag order is not allowed to comment on the jury at all or to direct any public statements about them. and that is why years therefore in violation of this gag order, i should note we also just got our first images from inside the courtroom this monday morning of the former president then you can see him here. he is seated at the defense table. we are told his son, eric trump has returned to the courtroom and is seated behind him along with his other attorney, elena harb right now, the 10th prosecution's witness, a former trump organization controller, who has testified in the civil fraud trial, is back on the stand. that is geoff macone paula reid, and karen friedman, agnifilo are back with me and we know this is not a household name. it's not stormy daniel's, it's not

michael cohen as we've been waiting to see who this is. an interesting in-person because he testified in the civil fraud trial h and broke down in tears on the stand during that k is talking about when he left the trump organization, why he retired because there were so many investigations and he was just talking about stressful it was but what what's the prosecution's point in bringing him up to the sand and this trial he's critical, even though as as you said, he's not a household name, this is the controller at the trump organization. he worked there for 35 years and this is finally, on day 12th, a witness who can talk about the alleged crime at the heart of this case, which is falsifying business records and no one's speaking with sources and around the defense team, they've always thought the deaf macone would be helpful witness for them. because they could take talk about how trump wasn't really that involved in the day-to-day in invoices in the minutiae of the business. but it's interesting asthma. connie took the stand can you described how trump was the brains of the trump organization up until though 2017, which is of course, the

year that all of this alleged criminal conduct occurred. so this again, not the most exciting name on its face, but geoff macone really is going to be critical for the prosecution. and again, they 12 and this is the first winning this who can speak directly to these documents. >> and i should note charon, he's talking about donald trump jr. and the trump org cfo, allen weisselberg, who is in prison at rikers, right now. i should know their rules inside the trump organization. he says that he became controller when weisselberg was promoted to cfo. that's interesting because allen weisselberg right now based on what we part is not someone we expect to see even though he would be able to directly speak to this, he's also a perjured himself and polluted, taken guilty pleas twice. now and so obviously it's not a reliable witness to to the witness stand he certainly not reliable for the prosecution for that reason, and he did testify at the at the trial, evolving the trump organization, but he refused to talk about donald trump directly. >> and so perhaps the

prosecution is deciding not to call him and they can get this information through mr. macone instead, who doesn't come with that same baggage he's basically saying that he's someone who has and lunch with allen weisselberg every day. >> so you can certainly testify to that. we're going to continue to watch all of this closely and monitor this as apologists noted, a critical witness who can speak to this, a key insider from the trump organization. now, on the witness stand, much more of what he is testifying as prosecutors questioned him, you're watching cnn's special live coverage with jake tapper today at four on cnn good morning with focal acts good. >> good. >> good yeah tried to lca x20 fruit bites for fast and ginko constipation relief. and as little as 30 minutes making your good morning even better with all galactose and. >> with ai, we can look at so much more than sales data. say

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bertrand at the pentagon. and this is cnn

donald trump's hush money trial. i'm killing collins in new york how money changed hands inside of trump organization. important testimony he follows an equally important ruling against the president from the bench, the former president, i should note one more sean ruling the donald trump violated a gag order. intense time, and that 11 time, if it does happen, could mean jail time, potentially that the judge said that is the last thing that he wants to do. i want to bring in david marcus just joining us. he is a criminal defense attorney and david, just as you're watching what has been argued here and now that we have this former employee who's retired, i should note from the trump organization up there testifying. how was the defense watching this? because they were complaining in court this

morning that they didn't find out until late yesterday that this was going to be the witness on the stand this morning. obviously, they'll get a chance to cross-examine them. what's it looking like for the defense overall from your perspective what the defense has had a rough couple of weeks to start the trial, but that's to be expected, right? >> you would expect the prosecution to be winning after the first two, three weeks of trial if they weren't there be in big trouble. but the defense hasn't had a moment yet. they need that moment like when you were questioning jd vance last week or in the ota case when the glove didn't fit their needs to be the moment that they can seize onto there. they haven't had that yet and so i think they're going to be pretty aggressive this weekend questioning. they need to have one of those moments i liked that comparison that you just made. there will revisit that later, but but on the sense of what they're asking, this force and this isn't stormy daniels. it's not michael cohen. he's not one of those blockbuster witnesses but polo redoes noting earlier than he is critical because what is at the heart of this is not that

donald trump paid hush money but porn star, it's how he did it and how it was labeled 20 paid michael cohen back on those internal records at the trump organization right. >> so that makes it really critical. hope hicks on friday was talking about denied, denied. denied. >> that's been the defense strategy in this trial, which is odd to me that might work for pr. >> i don't know if it does or not. that's your expertise, but in criminal trials, it does not. you have to be willing to concede certain things. so you keep your credibility. the jury is looking for which story makes more sense. so this witness is going to be important because as you say, that element about whether trump knew about the entries, the false entries is going to be the whole case. hey so the fact that he's fighting on other things like regarding stormy daniels and others is odd to me and i don't think that's a tod blanche driven thing that's got to be a client driven, deny, deny, deny thing well, and i should note this this employee, former employees retired, broke down

in tears during the civil fraud trial because he was essentially talking about why he leaped the trump organization after decades of being there, he was talking about all the subpoenas, all the legal issues that they were having to deal with. >> he's now a walking through how the accounting worked at the trump going is trump is whispering to his attorney, looking over at the witness hizon, the witness stand speaking to the jury and to prosecutors. i mean, if alan yslow berg can't get on the witness stand because he's not a reliable witness is viewed by the prosecution and he's also in jail right now after allegedly lying on the stand what? >> mccartney connect him to that, could he draw that through line for the jiri year that's that's what the prosecution is hoping for as you say, there's been some crime it was crawling on friday. >> there's crying. i think work on your audio a bit, david, it's not it's not totally coming. >> there will check on that and work on that. i've also got paulo read and karan free agnes below here with me. and we look at these witnesses. the other thing that is notable to me as who's left? i mean, these are

going through these witnesses as a really quick pace including a lot of the high profile once i mean, we have stormy daniels and michael cohen left and those are really the two biggest ones. yeah, it's really the big household names, the ones that are really critical to call and get there story out before the defense has a crack then you're also going to hear from other trump organization executives, including people in the accounting department so there's definitely more people to come in terms of who they want to call it now. right now, mr.. mcglone is going through the general ledger for trump's personal account. now, my dad's and accountant apologies to all the accounts out there, but this is not exactly they riveting testimony talking about the accounting practices of this organization, but it's what is at the heart of the case. this is what you need to put before the jury. you need them to understand trump's role in the accounting process, how much did he know about invoices? how much did he know about how and why checks were cut? this is the heart of the case. again, it's de 12 well, we're just getting into it now, but it is good that they have mccartney on the stand at someone who has first-term knowledge and he can talk about

this karan at what do you make of what there as they were trying to draw it closer to that because that has been the complaint that we've heard from critics. >> is that they haven't been able to draw it directly to trump this witness is walking through the trump was basically in charge of everything the code to his ledger for his personal accounts was dj at it is on that ledger where it said that michael cohen was paid for legal services when even rudy giuliani is on on television saying he wasn't doing any legal work for us so this is just a critical witness is not as exciting or dramatic as some of the other witnesses, but it's a critical witness for the reason paul was saying because he's charged with falsifying business records and the defense here that could happen that if donald trump were to take the stand, he could say, i paid my lawyer. >> we call the legal expenses he could get that out, so you could even have to testify in order to get that out. and the cert that is defense.

>> if he didn't intentionally violate the lungs, i didn't know. >> i thought it was legal expenses. yeah, i paid i paid serwer me, daniel's back, but it was a thought i was paying him extra for the work that he did and we coded it as legal expenses so this will this is critical to show to neutralize that defense and prove the case. >> when, the jury that's listening to this just went home all weekend after hearing from hope hicks and hearing her talk about how trump later in her view, express the opinion that he was much happier that the stormy daniels story became public look after, you'd already won the election, that it was better to happen then then before, which is what they've also been drawing it back to, which is that this was orchestrated not just on his personal behalf, but to benefit him politically in the campaign hope hicks testimony that moment right before she broke down on the stand, probably the most significant moment for the prosecution so far, because what she said that is that trump told her and he was aware of the payment he knew that michael cohen did it and said that michael cohen did it out of the goodness of his heart.

>> and then he also told her that he was glad that that story didn't come out, that it was suppressed ahead of the campaign and again, that is significant because the reason that this is being charged as a felony is because prosecutors alleged that they don't have to prove that this was done to help his chances in the election. so that was critical and now prosecutors moving on to the heart of the case, the actual paperwork. and again, it may not be the most riveting testimony mr. mcglone has broken down on the stand as you noted, but this is something that the prosecution absolutely has to nail down for the jury, so they understand why they're sitting in this box. >> yeah. jim, obviously, a key testimony from this witness who is very familiar with the inner workings of the trump organization at the time that all of this was happening in that these payments are being made absolutely and laura, elie, andrew, just a shorthand here for our viewers. geoff, because one is testifying because alan weisberg cannot yeah, i'm in jail. >> he's in jail and he wasn't going to be a cooperating

witness. i mean i mean, in a general sense of being co-operative as well as anything else? let's take a second job. remember, we're here though, i wanna go to my tablet because we've seen a number of witnesses so far. we've got our witness trackers that are already there. we've heard from david pecker to run a graph. we of course we knew him very well. now, we've got this man, jeffrey and mccartney, who is this person, the former trump organization comptroller, who actually cried on the witnessed after being on for days he's out of a six-week trial for the agl tissue james. now, why is it important to look in hand? because remember, go back to the indictment itself. there are 34 count of falsifying business records in the first-degree. what does that have to approve? you got to prove not only the intent to defraud commit another crime, eight, et cetera. but also made and confuse me, made and as a false entry of the business records. that is why we're really here and having this particular witness. and so what he can provide for everyone, it's not just solely the intent. nothing else or the commission for a crime. this is really these two things here have to do with what happened

already, excuse me, with weeks one and two, these people have talked about right here catching kill oh, my god, look at my penmanship. >> it's wonderful. that's actually a doctor i'm mature brown. good. i got another one, of course here is about the entire, about the ndas, right? >> and the politics of it. yeah, but now this witness is gonna get us back to the core of the issues. this false entry, it's not as sexy, perhaps it's it's not is going to be a salacious, but it's getting a convention, a conviction. yeah. yeah. yeah. yeah. >> ellie tell us about that. >> this is an accounting case and this is the accountant important. understand the trump organization has this image of grandeur, but it's really a pretty much a mom and pop shop. they only had about a dozen or so core employees at any given time, more pop mom, but right jeffrey, the accounting department, essentially a two-man operation, alveoli. so burge was the top di jeffrey mcglone was his vp, basically, his controller is number two, our weisberg is not going to testify a he's in prison he

has already shown he has never going to do anything to harm donald trump. he has remained did donald trump loyalists? he did one prison term of a few months. he's now doing another one rather than testified if you look back at my connie, this witness's testimony case he delivered trump's weekly cash report to him, right he knows the money follow the funding they're going to try to establish through mecole is that donald trump knew what was happening with the books. there's an update mecole says trump had told him, quote just because somebody is asking for money, negotiate with them, talk to them, don't just do it mindlessly. think before you do it, okay, there's the trump frugality, i guess, not surprising there. that's it. >> yeah. but they're trying to tie trump to the books, to the accounting. yeah. cristy. they actually do. and we didn't put it up here, but this is coming from inside the courtroom. it was part of it the story in which they were having a conversation and mcglone says he called him in and he was on the phone. trump is on the phone and he said you're fired and then you've off the phone. you said you're not actually fired. but my cash ledger went

down from last week and then he said this just because someone's asking for money, negotiate with them talking. so they're really even actually links them, even and closer to this saying that he was watching the balances. any notice from week to week, there have been a change. so clearly someone had asked for money instead of just you want some to not just give it to him, but to negotiate tying him pretty closely to what was going on here since he was looking at the balances every week. >> yeah. you can't underplay. >> how don i'll trump ran the trump organization even once he went to the white house, remember he wouldn't put it in a blind trust i'm i'm told laughing with the shoulder shaking at the defense table, asthma, connie, recall trump saying, jeff, you're fired. >> he wasn't fired mecole says it was a teaching moment to your point j, right and even when his children who are involved in the family business we're making decisions. i'm told they always went to him. so when mechanics says he ran the organization, he was the

brains behind it it also kept going when he went to the white house that did not change. >> jonny is gonna be tough for the defense to put separation between trump and these actions that took place. and that's why the prosecution is bringing these witnesses. >> you might say, where's more staff power? you had hope hicks, dan last week. so when are we going to get michael cohen? why don't we get stormy, dangerous? the prosecution? it's trying to lay it down clear and repetitively to the jiri dalma. trouble is involved in everything you couldn't spend more than a di without donald trump signing off. so that when they attack michael cohen and say he can't be trusted when he says mr. trump told them to do this, when he says mr. trump wanted this done, you can trust him. they want to be able to say, well, what about geoff mecole? what about hope hicks? what about everybody else they brought in? nothing can happen here without donald trump saying, do it. that's what they're trying to do. use a credible witness, somebody they have no doubt to attack geoff per connie's credibility to essentially put a safety blanket around my you a little bit like the pecker testimony and also in a way like hope hicks, this is a guy who's very favorable to donald trump.

>> i already five years of loyalty it was paid a half $1 million severance agreement when he decided to leave and it's the controversy in 2023. so he is someone who testifies without, unlike michael cohen. he's got no motivation to seek revenge against donald trump were to kick any, any shade on him for that reason, the other thing that mccartney does in addition to connecting up to weisberg and trump, he also supervised debs tarasoff, who was the accounts payable supervisor. so he has that ability to talk about things that were approved and how they got paid. >> here's a bit of testimony before 2017, donald trump had signature authority to cut checks after trump's inauguration, donald trump jr. eric trump and allan weissberg, did. >> oh, i've got a great slide. >> please anything over 10,000 out to be signed by two the signatories. so this is why it's important much a family business. it's a family business that you say more pop and mom, but i wanna go back to tablet because remember we're here about falsified business records. if you look at the dates of the falsified records

that we're talking about here. and it was difficult to see if you got the inauguration date here right back. i'm 2017 january 2020 in red, you're seeing the different dates here, right? about when there were crossing five record, some of them in orange are those that we're continued period of time for invoicing you see if you're talking about who has the authority to sign these checks. look at all these different occasions of who you're talking about eric trump or yslow burg. >> this was happening while he was in office. >> is everyone is an office. of course, got an update here, kalam slow is asking whether an employee receiving a reimbursement, ding ding ding has to report that minus taxable income let me say is they do not. that's where we are right now. if i remind people again of this update, we have that is the prosecutor, then asks whether an outside lawyer receiving a payment for legal services would have to be reported as taxable income. i would assume so, yes. now, remember, michael coleman is not an outside lawyer fair? right. so he is the inside lawyer for trump organization.

so it's going to very interesting to think about how they're trying to formulate again back this falsification of business records to michael cohen as but one example of 34 counts yeah. >> and i mean, i have to ask jamie gan go i mean, for the folks at home who are trying to sort through all of those process. this you know, trying to determine. okay. do i vote for donald trump again, i'm one of those nikki haley republican voters in one of these swing states as john king was referencing earlier how do you process all of this? >> i mean, this, this this i mean, this is trump's business right? >> absolutely. i don't know how you process that. a tablet for that happening in the early days of his administration john will be able to remember the numbers for me, but there was recently a primary in pennsylvania at 17% and nikki haley guts sent no.

>> so there are republicans and that's a closed primary? >> correct. so it's not people crossing over. there are republicans who do not want to vote for donald trump. >> yeah, they also don't have over joe biden. and this is their wrestling, right? this is the wrestling match. and well, some of them stay home with some of them go third party. how does this affect you by the time you get to the end and we're having these conversations today. and i would just be very careful what's going to happen between now and november both in trump land and in biden land, how do people feel about the economy? how do people feel about israel have is how do people feel about things that are going to happen that we don't even know about today. >> but but i do think the hope of team biden is with this front and center. >> the people who might have nostalgia for the pre-covid, trump economy. and you find that i've been on the rhoad lot. that's where you find a lot of people say, well, i refinanced my house at two-and-a-half percent, or 3% the byte team biden hopes, oh yeah, this is what i remember this. >> and a lot of you were talking about hope hicks is testimony over the weekend. i mean, that was certainly something that got everybody's

attention and then we should note just in the last couple of minutes i'll prosecutor asking whether an outside leuser receiving a payment for legal services would have to have that reported as taxable income. i would assume so, yes. mccartney said, jim, if i could just build on that just so people understand the key transactions here, there's two steps. michael cohen first, pay stormy daniel's $130,000. we heard testimony about that last fleet. the way cohen got that money was he drew down on his own personal home mortgage. in fact, without his wife knowing about it. so cohen pay stormy daniels. then the second transaction and that's what they're talking about now. and this is where the heart of the crime really lies, is in the trump organization reimbursing michael cohen and the amount they reimbursed him was over four hundred thousand dollars. and part of the reason the prosecution's theory is they wanted to double him up basically, so that he could pay whatever taxes he would owe as a result of having made the payment to stormy daniels. so the numbers aren't going to match up here. they amount. michael cohen was repaid, was triple and then some more than

he paid stormy daniel isn't the prosecution is trying to explain why it went down. >> you have to wonder with we saw this last week with a paper trail witnesses that they were followed by at the end of the week, hope hicks dramatic testimony. >> could we be building up to something at this point? >> absolutely. yeah. this is like a series on netflix. you're not going to put all your big plot points in the first episode, you're going to stretch them out over the course of the series and you'll see that here in the trial. >> all right. we are moments away more updates from cnn reporters inside the courtroom as the man who was in charge of the trump organization ledger testifies under oath the paper trail following the money. all continuous in just a moment, you're watching cnn for life wow, they're shooting peppers play into the crowd. i'll show you it's happening from him and they're giving order 1st to disperse any feels like oh, la happened here ever missed those before you're presenting

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the stand right now inside that manhattan board house, jeffrey moore county demand, who handed donald trump weekly cash reports and cut checks we're the trump organization has testifying for the prosecution following that money trail prosecutions goals to make unbreakable links between how money flows in and out of the front business to the with his name on the door of the former president of the united states. let's bring in someone who is central to this hush money trial. michael rothko, he is a former reporter for the wall street journal of outbreak. both the karen mcdougal story in 2016 and the stormy daniel story in 2018. he might we might not be here today, if not for the reporting coming from him and his colleagues, michael. thank you very much for joining us. we should know your now and investigative reporter for the new york times. and joins me from the new york times newsroom your sense of how everything is playing out right now. i mean, a lot of these witnesses sound as though they're almost people who have managed donald trump's piggy bank as much as

his whole business. but these alleged hush money payments to stormy daniels the even reporting on for years, is there anything in this trial that has jumped out that is new to you? >> i mean, i think it's largely what we expected. i mean, what we're seeing now is i think they started by trying to show how trump and david pecker from the national enquirer and michael cohen had a deal to suppress news about the election that's the context in which these charges of falsifying business records to repay michael cohen for the stormy hush money so now they're moving with this accountant, jeff ma, connie, into the actual repayment scheme for michael cohen and the false records. so we're seeing a gradual progression of we get to eventually michael cohen michael mccartney was recalling just a few moments ago that cone was complaining about his bonus. so that was factor factored in at the time and this latest tidbit, macondo

says we added everything up and came up with the amount we would have to pay him. it sounds as though the prosecution with mccartney's help us trying to lay out okay. this maybe watch some of the numbers, don't add up why comin got a little bit more than what was reimbursed and so on yeah, the 420,000 he was repaid over the course of a year, which was characterized as legal fees was made up of a few different things. >> one of it was $130,000 hush money. there was a bonus you just mentioned and then they doubled everything for taxes, but they said it was all legal fees, which is what the prosecution says was just basically a lie. and that's where trump is charged with with 34 counts of phony records that his company and right now, the prosecution is showing an exhibit with alan weisberg handwriting. we were just talking a few moments to go about why alan weisberg is not testifying using the slammer but prosecutor also saying right now, did mr. weisberg sometime take acute notes to

record a financial decisions and mccartney said he, he responded to that another update. how do you know it's it's his handwriting, the prosecutor asking mecole says, i've been looking at his handwriting for 35 years, so there are essentially having mccartney testify to what alan weissberg was doing during that timeframe right? and that's important that yslow burge was basically i mean, he was a trusted lieutenant for donald trump and was essentially arranging this reimbursement of michael cohen. what the thing weisberg could have provided, but she's not going to, is the direct connection to donald trump? the only thing that person that really is going to be able to do that is michael cohen and obviously we know he's been to prison. he's going to be attacked for his credibility and so that's gonna be maker break for the prosecution and jurors are being shown the bank statement with wiser birds handwriting,

as well as a document met with the notes that he took. i mean, all of this is just to establish that paper trail. so the defense can't come in later and say, i didn't trump didn't know what these guys were doing. this was all going on behind the scenes. he didn't know about that i guess that's part of this as well. >> there are probably going to say that anyway, they're going to say, well, donald trump relied on his, his employees and they told him that these were legal fees and he just sign the checks. they when rona graph his assistant was on the stand the other day they the defense was asking her didn't he sometimes sign checks while he was on the phone? you want to make it sound like he was distracted and he would just sign these checks. but the prosecution has really tried to show donald trump was very careful about every dollar that came in and out of his company. >> yeah. michael, i mean, does this does it make sense i mean, speculate just for a moment that perhaps this is teeing up michael cohen to testify? >> i mean, if we're having

somebody establish here where the paper trail was going, where the money was flowing from the tropicalization to michael cohen might make sense to bring them in next or not too long after that yeah. >> i mean, it's definitely setting him up. >> he's the one who's going to put everything together. the context in which this hush money deal was made, and the reimbursement that's the focus of the indictment but probably he'll go last. he's the star witness and so they will want the jury to see him before they finished their case. i imagined before i let you go, your article, breaking the stormy story has heavily featured in this trial. what's it like to have your work be the jumping off point for the first criminal trial of a former president in history. and what we just heard a few moments ago earlier on in this program, it could lead to the temporary incarceration. the first temporary incarceration of a former president i mean, it's

real obviously it's, i mean, six years since we reported that story and eight years since the karen mcdougal hush michael and eisley yeah. >> you've got to go. >> my god, i wish i wish we'd gotten that answer. there was breaking the signal was breaking up there over at the new york times. we'll get back to you, michael, as this trial progresses. thanks so much for all of that. i guess as we have bunch of questions laid out that i wasn't asked, mike landed have asked me what was happening during the trial. it got very interesting. they're laura, i mean because they were talking about basically they're having geoff marconi answer for what michael allen weisberg, i should say, was doing during this time. weisberg can testify. geoff bocconi can he cannot again, that's important point here. it says the credibility of the witness and the jiri wants to see it probably ask us any questions. a lot of us are how does 420,000? doesn't dollars has $100,000 payment turned into a 420,000 repayment? of course, i've got my tablet up with my with my take a look. fancy is my legal pads. so how does the

$420,000 actually translate to other things? here's how it breaks down. you got the $130,000 payment to stormy, right? that's the one that we all have known about. then you've got the hundred and $80,000 payment to cowen. now, what does that actually include? that includes what he would have to report for his reimbursements as income. and so trump, let you take the tack on an extra 180,000 so that cowen would still have the money he was owed after his taxes, then you've got a $60,000 bonus as well to cohen and apparently something about $50,000 to a tech company as well that help to boost the polling and the ratings you add all this up and i'm hoping my math is correct here and about $420,000. but you at the end of that, you've got 11 invoices, 11 checks, and you've got the ledgers. but again, what's important to think about as a calendar year? all these different dates, all the different moments. it wasn't a onetime payment. it was intended to do be attributed over time. now the whole corps here is about these false entries because if these were not actually legal fees, then you go right back over to what

is being charged and what has to be proven here. you're talking about the intent to commit another crime to defraud the other crime but cetera, and these false entry is that the key here? and we've got the documents that would be needed, of course, to do so. this is this witness talking about what they're seeing and talking about the handwritten notes are tracking about the different bank statements as well. and again, there's thing right now, mccartney is saying that the red finch line item on the document for it's for tech services as we went back to the $50,000 yeah. grossed up is intended to offset taxes as well. this all again, the word intended there, right? what do you need intent intent to defraud your math is spot on. >> i doubled. thank you. because i was like there would be no here's here's how this plays. he's entered the prosecution theory. if you were ordinarily paying a layer for motor sent you a belts and i did $130,000 worth of work. you pay module $30,000. you don't say, here's 100 at extra just to cover you're texas that you

may have to pay on that. that's what was done here. so the prosecution is going to argue that was unusual and that shows you this was not in fact a turkey. sometimes i was bookkeepers are used two nehl mob bosses. and so i mean, that's and let's, remember it all comes down to the evidence. >> so according to the indictment, this actual handwritten these handwritten notes that lay out the payment details are written on the back of one of michael cohen's bank statements and they were allegedly written by alan yslow berg, who we've already you've heard this witness identify allan weiss, will bergs handwriting, so that's likely what the prosecution is building two hear. >> yeah. >> i just had this is we may think that this is dry, but i think this really speaks to the documents part of this case. this is the black and white. this is not michael cohen and his credibility led. and there were two things that that the prosecution had them say. he said, i had lunch with allan weiss hilberg every day for three decades. >> one was complaining that as previous your bonus wasn't

large enough. that's what mccartney is testifying to right now. sorry. >> so the point is they can't have alan weisberg not because he's in jail well, you can bring people in from jail to testifies because they don't think he will testify in a credible way. so mccartney is the cut-out. let's say, for yslow burn. >> yeah, for there is one issue with this, which is that he's saying this as somebody who knows why berg and but he doesn't seem to know lysogen is this telling him stuff and he's repeating what basal berg said. i mean, i don't know if that impacts how that comes out but it's not as though yslow is giving him any kind of readout of what exactly it's for the county says, $35,000 was to be wired to cohen monthly beginning february 1, 2017. that is after donald trump was sworn in as president united states, the scheme was continuing even while trump was an office, jayyab. fascinating. just fascinating. yeah. again, that gets to the politics part of it. that is this what you want in your president, but to the chronology part of this in

the who's in charge, part of this. you had mcglone making weissberg was for this and if y sub work was for at mr. trump knew it. that's what this testimony is about. >> i saw the untouchables, the testimony of the bookkeeper was very crude exactly how it is, exactly how that in just three modes right now, the prosecution verifying how things work inside the trouble organization with a critical documents witness jeffrey macartney just identified the handwriting amount of calcium, allan weisberg saying he's been looking at his handwriting for 35 years. i'd say an expert on that much more coverage there's a wide coverage, just in that table how we'd really happy with jesse you, martin. sunday's at nine on cnn what's brilliant, boring. >> think about it boring is the unsung catalyst for bolt what straps mold to a rocket and hurdles and into space. >> or boring makes occasions happen. >> early retirements possible and startups start off because it's smart, dependable, and

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world's news you're watching especial live coverage a convergence of politics with law and order manhattan courtroom this morning as a judge, just starting to incarcerate the former president if he violates his gag order, again, for doing so ten times already moments ago, the trump campaign commented on that warning from the judge saying it is a third world or thor tyrion tactic instead of just a normal courtroom one that most defendants we're also closely tracking the testimony of the trump organization money man, geoff mccartney. >> he's not household name, but right now, he is walking the jury through why he mistakenly wrote down $1 amount in this way, he said, quote, i made a boo-boo, a brief moment of levity and a very serious morning so far. that is all about what is it the part of this case and i've got paulo read and karan freed when i give a low back here with me. >> and this document is notable

because what they are basically walking through is how this longtime trump organization employee and allan weiss, will burke, who is sitting in prison right now at riker's, how they were going to structure the payment to michael cohen, and how much it was going to be michael cohen demanding more money because he said is bonus the erbb4. >> but but what's notable is he had the initials dj t and on this document is they were writing through what this was going to look like if i'm a member of the jiri sitting in the box listening talla, it seems chaotic and confusing a little haphazard now because he is being shown an email to he sent in february 2017 reminding cohen to send an invoice. >> you also just testified that it was customary for employees to submit invoices to get reimbursed because they're talking about the $130,000 payment that cohen made to davidson, keep davidson strawberries lawyer, then they're talking about how he's upset with his bonus than they're trying to offset some taxes. they're just throwing all these numbers down, i think with the prosecution really

needs to do right now is go step by step through how these business documents were intentionally falsified because i think a lot of people, for example, when cohen has to submit this invoice, when we do our expenses, you may not always be super specific or you could be general, right? so you news gathering instead of what assignment you're going to so right now in this critical moment, prosecutors really need to slow their role a bit and walk jurors through how they believe this was intentional, falsifying a business records. >> do you think gets it's confusing for the jury as they're walking them through as we've seen, these detailed updates of how they're walking them through this evidence of the documents. >> so it can be and that's why you're going to see them asks what seems like the same question over and over again. because it does get dry and confusing and numbers can sometimes confuse people. but i think paul makes a good point about the expenses when you when you put in an expense for something you say what it is and you get reimbursed for it.

that's very different than if you're getting paid income. right? and then you have to pay taxes on income. and so that is going to be a critical piece here about what this is. and i think the prosecution is going to be able to pretty clearly show that this is false. but what's missing is the link to trump well, and what they're saying is that they would go through one. >> he testified about trumping involved in everything and how that structure change after, he became president, it was donald trump jr. and alan yslow berg that had to be the two signatures on any invoice above $10,000 that they were paying. and now he's walking through how he sat down with allan weiss, and they went through and always works and we need to we've got michael cohen money yeah. >> it sounds like how it would match and things happen at the trump organization again, a little haphazard scribbling things down on a notepad and it's gonna be interesting can you see which way mcglone goes in terms of how helpful he is to prosecutors. because every time he talks about how involved trump was, he draws a line at 20:17, which is of

course a way into the white house. and we know trump signatures are on this, these checks, but no one's speaking with sources that the defense team also believes that mecole will be helpful witness to them to illustrate how uninvolved trump was at that time. they're also going to argue that michael cohen during the time in question for whatever invoice he submits that he was doing a legal services so that you're saying this was part of a retainer agreement or for legal services? was not an outright lie. now, as you've noted, rudy giuliani on the record saying other things, but i think they might be able to undercut i, rudy giuliani pretty easily. >> now want to turn employers right now, sees a necklace is speaking with the former president at the defense table. >> the defense lawyers are right now with the judge. they're arguing about bringing it out. >> exhibit and karam, we talk about the two different styles that we've seen from the prosecution and the defense, because the prosecution and i was in the room last week, basically seems to be telling a story, crafting a narrative to the jury, and they'll have these sensational witnesses and then they'll have someone like a controller, the trump organization you should walk in

through his lunches with allan yslow berg. and how they did invoices and what that looked like. the defense often has gotten up there and been pretty straightforward and short and they're questioning and correct and so i wonder how are they thinking about what they're going to do when it's their turn to cross-examine mr.. mcglone. >> always very important when you're developing a cross-examination to think of two things. number one, what can, how can you use that witness to help you? this is somebody who their thinking he has been there for 34 years. there must be things that can help trump's defense. so you are going to see some of that on cross-examination for sure. and then certain things that will poke holes in what he's saying, right? i mean, they have to distance themselves from this because at the end of the de, i think the prosecution is going to do a very good job at proof proving that these were false business entries. and so i think what what the trump defense team is going to do is they're going to cross examine mr.. mecole one in such

a way that this was michael cohen and this is completely him devising a way to do it. so it was good for him. he didn't want to pay taxes but trump didn't know about it. as paula said in 2017, things were very different. >> one narrative that they're crafting though, we know we're going to hear from michael colon some point in this case hilal testify that trump confirm this. trump signed off on everything that we're seeing the machinations of right now. >> yeah. the problem michael cohen, is that because his previous conviction for lying, is that you need to you need to support anything that comes out of his mouth with additional testimony or documents. now, i do think it's interesting, mr. mccartney was asked about michael collin a short time i'm a and he was asking, did you know him? yeah. >> he's sort of given ambiguous understanding of what michael cohen's role was. >> he said like, yeah, i think he was the leuser. he said he was that he said he was the lawyer not got a big chunk off from the jiri and everyone in the courtroom, but it also it highlights the ambiguous nature of the entire situation karan,

can i ask him for we go and the light of what trump's team is saying about the gag order ruling this morning from the judge trumps and contempt ten times now for it would any other criminal defendant be able to violate a gag order ten times and avoid jail time i'm i don't i've never seen that before. i've never seen a defendant be permitted to get away with as much as trump has gotten away with in any of his cases and avoid jail. i think if you we looked at other high-profile cases, sam bank min free, for example, he was out on bail and he made one slight thing wrong, and the judge put them in for trial. >> karan friedman, i can offload. thank you for that. the prosecution, as we are noting, still walking through an email that the trump organization sent to michael cohen about has reimbursed this man after he paid off stormy daniels, the testimony is hitting a critical point and what's at the underlying part of this entire case right now,

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when other vacation rentals aren't what they're cracked up to be. dry one where you know what you get? >> closed captioning brought you by mesto book.com our firm only represents mesothelioma victims and their families. >> if you are loved, one has been diagnosed with mesothelial oma call us now watching cnn special live covers testimony today. uh, donald trump's hush money trial, focusing squarely on the business records of must prove donald trump falsified elie. let me go to you first because we're seeing this a little tidbit coming out of the courtroom. mccartney emailing yslow burge, asked him to approve the invoice okay. to pay as per agreement with don and eric weisberg, robe back. so i mean, just really establishing mccartney and why sobered work, hand in hand, it seems in doing a lot of this, i

don't know what covering up the hush money schemas as prosecutors are alleging. so the prosecutors big goal here is to tie donald trump to this accounting to these invoices, to these ledger entries as closely as possible. and you can see they're taking it step-by-step. you go from a ani who's the controller up to alloway. so berg, who is the cfo now we see that don and eric and i will assume that is referenced to donald trump jr. and eric trump. now, they're involved. and so the closer you bring this to donald trump, the more plausible it's going to be when michael cohen, shirley says, owner know donald trump was involved in all of this. he understood the way we structured and accounted for this yeah. >> john, i mean, we're talking about the paper trail and so on. but the one headline that i still can't get over, start off the beginning of this. here's an update. did you send this invoice to the legal department? was a typical for the legal department of review requests, repayment, and really getting into the nuts and bolts here of the paperwork here. but i mean, for the judge to threaten donald trump with jail time that to me that's going to stay. i think that's going to stay with a lot of folks

watching this today. abc ipsos poll found this was a while back, a fifth of trump's supporters, so they would either reconsider their support or withdraw it if he's convicted of a felony, if he's convicted of a felony and pending put in jail for contempt is different than being convinced a felony per say. but i think the idea is if they if this conduct front and center, there, a lot of people, a lot of republicans who are struggling with their vote, are trying to process trump did all these things in the past, but i don't like the biden administration. i'm troubled by inflation. i want my taxes cut, i want the border closed and i'm willing to block out the noise of trump if i get one or two policies out of trump because washington is not doing anything. i like if i get one or two things from him, i'll block out the rest. that's where they are now. the question is if they see something like in jail for contempt of court when stormy daniels is an adult film actress testifying about a hush money payments mean are those the things that stir up, especially in the american suburbs, were donald trump's toxic nature, his caustic tone, and his personal character have

turned off a lot of republican voters or republican leaning independent voters. does this trial help that effort? does this trial move that effort in the that's that's my big question politically, when you travel for a lot of people who are ready to hold their nose and vote for trump. the question is, will something like this change? >> and chris, i mean, trump has been saying, oh, i can't go out and campaign and so on because of this i mean, obviously you can't do that if you're behind bars are in this holding cell for a couple of hours, but he was, you know, he had the weekend off yeah. is that mar log of giving a speech accusing the biden administration of being the gestapo? >> yeah audio i got it from a source. >> who is there and he's very angry when it comes to legal stuff. i mean, at one point he calls jack smith and f-ing a whole so just to say that this is profanity laden, is really an understatement. but one thing i want to note just about all these commerce students were having about trump and the gag order. i understand the idea that donald trump is a millionaire, possibly a billionaire. we're not really sure that these fines might not matter to him. donald trump hates parting with money. so the idea that he's up there getting find first four, $9,000

and then another thousand dollars. there's a reason you haven't seen him violate the gag order. he doesn't want to pay $1 part of what he has said over and over again about this is not just that it's unfair, but that he cannot believe that this is bleeding money, jaime, i wonder does he does he want to be putting the slammer? >> i mean, there's there's a pardon me of the wonders of donald trump really wants it, despite what john king says about how this may affect nikki haley voters, independence, and so on. he wants two. this will be another opportunity to review but that base that each this stuff up john king is nodding his head. >> luck, we know trump thinks the playing the victim, the martyr, helps him with his supporters and potentially with raising money i would argue that the swing voters are not going to find that a good luck. >> all right, there very quickly there is an argument you're making. we don't know what's going to happen come november, but there is an argument. get all the trunk based out. hope that third party candidates gets significant 3%, 4%, 5%, and that could be enough in some states, the judge may be

thinking about that as well. all right, guys. thank you so much. appreciate that. a great conversation this morning. former trump organization accountant detailing how he reminded michael cohen multiple times to send him invoices. this is part of the prosecution planned to connect dots between trump and the scheme to buy the silence of stormy daniels. more seated coverage just goodbye stories was at the absolute peak of his celebrity in olympic heroes, shocking murder trial, we learned of a much darker individual how would really we happen with jesse l. martin sunday at nine on cnn from tried and true to try something new so many ways to save life ready wallet, happy. >> that's 3605 by whole foods market. here's to getting better with age. here's the beat least two every thursday help fuel today with boost type

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hand reach to every aspect of the scheme to buy the silence of adult film actress stormy daniels. that is the allegation that the prosecution is trying to prove geoff lakhani, the accountant, detailed how he was told donald trump jr. and eric trump signed off on paying michael cohen how we didn't send an invoice to the legal department, something against normal procedure i'm killing collins here for a new york and is just after 11:00 a.m. here in manhattan court open just after 9:30 a.m. with a dramatic start and a threat from the judge to the former president of the united states. >> judge juan merchan, cautioning the presumptive republican nominee that violating a gag order 11th time because he's already done it ten times could potentially land him in jail. i'm here with karen friedman, agnes below, who is the former chief assistant district attorney in the manhattan da's office? i should note, she's a council to a firm that represents

michael cohen, but she doesn't have contact with them and doesn't work on her case and can speak about it freely. we also have paulo read here. this we are ensuring an interesting moment in this testimony where right now the prosecutor is showing the connie, who was a top official, the trump organization for a long time, an invoice from michael cohen. >> these are obviously the payments for donald trump was paying michael cohen back for paying stormy daniels the $130,000. and they're getting to an interesting moment here and paula, where they're basically walking through how he had to send these checks. he said this is a whole new process to washington because they were coming out of trump's personal account, not as trust account, and he was saying they did figure out to get these checks to the president of the united states. so he could sign them and send them back to them. exactly. it's still far with the jury is seen as a mechanic testify about this meeting he has with alan weisberg there scribbling some stuff down on a piece of paper about michael cohen's griping about his bonus. there's hundred and $30,000. there's some tax concerns. they kinda come up with his way to pay him back and then when it

comes to the idea that this was somehow a retainer, mecole testified that he hadn't seen any retainer agreement retainer is usually what you give money to a lawyer to retain them for their services so michael cohen said part of these payments was four. what kind he said he didn't see any evidence of that. they did go a little outside the norm by not going through the legal department to check but then after that, it's mccartney who puts in the ledger that this was for legal services. >> and so far this testimony, kaitlan, we've seen no direct link to the defendant, so you're still waiting for the prosecution to establish that somehow in this alleged conspiracy that they're falsifying business records here, that there's a direct link to the defendant. >> we haven't seen that yet. and that should be right now. that is a problem for the prosecutor. so there was this moment karan at the beginning when but connie took the stand and he told the story of how when he first started, he walked into trump's office and trump said, your fire and he was kind of taken aback and then trump got off the phone and said you're not actually fired, but basically my bottom

line is now looking as good as it is. >> it's you're just paying all these bills instead of trying to negotiate them in questioning where the money is going and that seems to be prosecutor say if there's not that you direct leyen dj t signed on this, they're trying to say donald trump is someone who pay very close attention to where this money was going. >> yeah. i mean, look, the counter-argument is if not if michael cohen was going rogue and wasn't supposed to do this and wasn't authorized to do it. not only with donald trump, not have paid him back, he certainly wouldn't pay him back, almost triple the amount that he paid so. clearly he was in on it and he was in on this scheme. and so i think they're going to be able to prove that through all sorts of evidence, but i agree with paula. i've yet to see anything here that links directly to donald trump from this witness. >> we also have adam kaufman, you here joining us was been irregular. are special programming as we've been watching this trump trial so closely as a former executive or director assistant in the da's office, also here in

manhattan in atom as we look at this, and you're hearing what they're testifying basically, he is saying that he was following the invoices that michael cohen sent him as he was putting this in the ledger. and what this was looking like, and i should note right now, they're reading and showing the jiri and april 2017 email that says alan, happy holidays referring to alan weisberg says, i'm attaching the april invoice for processing thank you. michael di co-ed. michael cohen is sending these invoices to them, then they are in turn creating these checks, sending them to the white house and having trump's son them. what's the significance of this testimony? because it seems to be getting at the root of this entire criminal gangs yeah. >> so one, one concept to keep in mind is what the law calls accomplish liability are acting in concert and the idea that if one person, if two people agree to commit a crime in one does something and they share the same intent. both are held criminally liable. who or what

the one did now, if the prosecution here will probably argue that michael cohen created those false invoices, but they reflect the agreement that he made with trunks to do it this way. and so the fact that we haven't heard anyone detail and i agree to this point. it's something of a weakness. no one is detail trump's direct involvement in making these entries, but to the extent that michael cohen, this derives from michael cohen's false invoice that the invoice had false information on it, and that the people who received it, we're just inputting the same false information that can go back to donald trump on a theory of acting in concert that he and michael cohen, we're doing this together. and so he should be criminally liable for michael cohen's invoices as well as for the entry is in his leisure so could that put us in a situation where they are relying on michael cohen to

confirm that it will be his testimony. and that's it. >> well, i mean, at the end of the day, right. this is what the certainly defense cross has been pointing to they've been taking pieces of the prosecution witnesses and sort of embracing them to confirm certain aspects of the case where they think that the witnesses either distance since donald trump from the illegality or where they think that the witnesses are damaging to michael cohen's credibility, right? a lot of the prosecution witnesses cut different ways. we've talked about that a few times so yeah ultimately, the defense is going to say this is all about michael cohen and you can't take his word because he's a scoundrel and a liar the prosecution is going to say, look at all the paperwork, look at the documents that corroborate what michael cohen is telling you in the independent witnesses so it's going to cut different ways, but yeah in large part, a lot

of the case will come down to michael cohen and how the jiri views and right now, they are showing that jury basically every invoice that michael cohen sent to alan wiser berg, who was then the cfo of the trump organization right now. >> he is serving time at riker's prison. >> i wonder, adam, what you make of the pace of how this this case has proceeded. >> we've been talking it could go a month, it could go six weeks. there were concerns with jury selection. if one juror could attend his daughter's wedding on june 8th. what do you make of how quickly is it is it going faster than you believed it would? >> yeah, definitely i thought jury selection could take weeks to find 12, 18 people who could be impartial in manhattan about donald trump jury selection spit by the witnesses have gone very smoothly. i think judge merchan is running a tight ship in the courtroom, but i also think again that a lot of

witnesses, the defense hasn't need to go out of their way to destroy know lengthy cross-examination is setting up key points to try to destroy the witnesses because as i just said, a lot of a lot of what the witnesses are saying, the defendant since this adopting and trying to marshal into their own arguments. and so i think the trial is going much quicker than anyone thought it would, which is you guys can get out of there sooner. >> i don't know if you were still in the da's office would you feel good about how this is preceded so far it's a great question you know, one of the things that a questioned about this case was to some extent, what is this about? it's really about the hush money payments that were an in-kind campaign contribution that should have been disclosed. and the focus has been on the fact that

arnold trump's records are falsified that he made are cause false entries in those records what the di didn't charge to me is very interesting. and what the da didn't charge was that same law falsifying business records? can also cover situations where someone has an obligation to make a record and they omit to make that record. so you're up you're oblige, you bill legal obligation to make some type of entry and you don't do it. that's the same crime as causing a false entry to be made and it's been very curious to me through throughout that the di never charged the omissions, right? if donald trump should have made this entry, than he should have made the entry in the records of the trump campaign. and if that entry wasn't made, that would be a no mission. and to me in many ways that would have been the stronger case. it's not what was charged here. and so i think the case is going in well, but i think

there is this sort of gap. donald trump did what he did the question is whether this is sort of captures the essence of it, which is the illegal campaign contributions yeah, interesting perspective. adam kaufman, thank you. and right now i should note inside that courtroom were just talking about the prosecution is going through invoice invoice by invoice of these payments to michael cohen related to this alleged scheme? at the center of this case. the question is how the jury is receiving it much more of cnns especial live coverage right after this how we'd really happen with jesse l. martin sunday's at nine on cnn chi no way why would i use kayak to compare hundreds of travel sites at once i like to do things myself i do my own searching use chi it i can put

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things has what you need to get going with your de it's the five essential stories of the morning in five minutes or less. >> cnn's five things with kate bolduan streaming weekdays exclusively on macs the jerry right now is hearing evidence straight from a trump organization insider. >> you're watching cnn special live coverage i'm dana bash, the prosecution's mission this morning is to try to draw a direct line between the payments to michael cohen from the trump organization and the boss. the former president the united states. i want to add brian lanza to our conversation. he worked for the trump campaign in 2016, which is how i first met you remember going back to these days about how how small the team was how connected you are all work to each other and to the boss. as michael cohen and maybe you also called him as we're listening to and watching this testimony right now from

somebody who worked on the books inside the trump organization. can you just kinda give us a sense of how you view what's happening given the fact that you are actually there inside the trump campaign at the time? >> yeah. first of all, thank you for having me with respect to how the transactions are going this place. i mean, it's it's not uncommon in trump role even in 2016, where you had a lot of people have sort of acting independently to try to help oftentimes they didn't help. oftentimes we stumbled upon them trying to help and we stumbled upon, i guess, at some point, don junior, you're meeting with some russians because some third party thought is a good idea. so that was, that was not uncommon. so it's not uncommon for michael cohen di act as a free agent in my experience, in 2016, he often came down to the campaign, sort of gave directives of what needed to be done. but then when we circled back with president trump, it was completely contrary to what president trump had wanted. so for us, we oftentimes refer to micah cohen is 2% because you could only count on them being truthful, 2% of the time and so

i suspect this is just an extension of what we've seen for 2016, even probably an extension of what how michael cohen has done most of his business and trump organization acting out as independent agent, checking in when it's convenient, but sort of keeping his distance because there's huge tends to be a lot of outside, advisors saying don't do those things, but just to play devil's advocate calling him 2% or saying that he was a free agent. a lot of times is one thing, but it wasn't there also a dynamic that he the former president, also than just a businessman, really relied on michael cohen to do some of the dirty work. okay. thank you dirty work. the dirty work that trump needed done. and to have that maybe understanding that he didn't need to know everything, but that eventually when things came around, that trump would support some of the things that cone was doing if cohen was trying to do it in trump's best interests, what i've learned

through through michael, i know michael really well from the campaign i've stayed in contact with them afterwards. is often misrepresented. you know what then the candidate trump wanted he often went too far and there was a lot of times you had to fix, you had a fixes on problems. i think hoped of talked about that during her testimony that a lot of these problems are sort of mica coincide self-inflicted. so yes, there probably was because of the type of relationship the president trump had with michael cohen. there's some some sort of nods and looks that cohen had always feel he handled it. but what i've experienced is whenever cohen's felt he handed oftentimes it landed in trump's hands because there was a failure for coding to do it the right way or go excide the parameters that was expected because at that point you mentioned that because i was in the courtroom on friday and when hope hicks made that comment about, he called himself the fixer only because he had broke it first and it got a large chuckle in the courtroom for that very reason. >> but then of course the testimony throughout that de and hope hicks with somebody who is intimately part of the campaign. she suggested that to

your point hey, that he was rhoad get times, things contrary with the campaign wanted, but there wasn't really emotional moment as well where she seemed to be overwhelmed by the moment of the testimony. some would argue maybe the weight of the entire testimony. but i'm wondering from your experience working with hope hicks were you surprised in that moment about her reaction to testimony? >> no. listen, i think it's it's somebody who was there with hope at the very beginning when she joined the trump campaign. i think people forget she was originally came aboard to the organization to help open up golf courses and so the evolution of hope and you're getting involved in the dirty business of politics and it's dirty if you've all seen it sort of amplified how dirty this thing gets. we've always become somewhat protective of her and we've done a good job. some people feel they've done a good job of protecting her, but it is it's a lot it's a lot for somebody who didn't sign up for this. it's a lot for somebody who let's say didn't watch the west wing. it was driven passionate, but by politics to be thrusted into this. and now you've had several subpoenas by a special

prosecutor. you've had congressional investigations. you've got congressman out there sort of democratic congressman out there, happy that they've made you cry like that. that can be overwhelming for anybody, much less so a person who never asked for this, but who still did it good job loyally and fiercely for the president. >> i want everybody to jump in, but i also just want to touch on what's happening as we speak in the courtroom, collins, november invoice did not specify the amount to be remitted, but mccartney said that he understood the amount to be the $35,000 previously agreed upon as they continue the december invoice was sent and so they're continuing to try to use this trump organization insider to build their case that this was these were documents that were falsified, which is the bottom line of the prosecution's it's at that point you're describing michael cohen is a bit of a free agent that he would do things on his own did you ever see any evidence and he had the authority to tell the trump organization send me a check before hundred $20,000. did he have he did. he was the other

employees are saying donald trump kept a very close eye on the money. maybe it was a free agent over here and over there. the issues of this case is, did trump authorize the money to trump know what was happening with the money? did you ever see michael cohen have the authority to spend tens of thousands? so i've donald trump's money. >> yeah, not that i'm aware of, but i was never involved in the transactions of the trump organization. mine was more sort of campaign related, so i know for a fact he was not authorized. it's been any campaign money can i just push back because there are two different things going on here. one is you are talking about from the campaigns point of view. and there's been a lot of evidence and the defense is trying to push that michael cohen had nothing to do with the campaign because they don't want this to be a lecture related. so you've said talked about some instance this is where he did try to get involved with the campaign. so that may blurs, blur align. but to john's point what do we know about donald trump? common sense. he cares about money a lot he didn't pay back the

national enquirer when they put up money for him there's no evidence that we've seen that michael cohen went rogue in paying this money. >> and if he had, i think donald trump would not have gone to all this trouble to pay him back. >> it's just common sense donald trump and money you're just saying that there was a moment. i'm going to go to my tablet if i can if you don't mind precise, develop a tablet. i do. >> ryan, wait to see the trapezoid is dependent the pen right now, but just i want to go back for a second to what we're talking about the dates here. >> we're having a lot of testimony coming in, say from deftly macondo, again, he was the person who would know where the documents are, how how it transpired, his whole role today is to testify as to how the money flowed from one source, the other. >> we'll look at the dates of these falsified records we've mentioned don junior. we've mentioned eric. they were the one, two we're now running some org while trump isn't the wife that's each of these red signifying wearing the actual

payments were supposed to be invoiced. remember this is to the tune of write it in green here, $35,000. each of these payments. so why is this important? because he had to go back to what is actually the argument you have to actually prove there has to be false entries here. and the intent to do something in terms of defrauding if you look at just the pure amount of money we're dealing with here, talking about a total of $420,000. and here's how it breaks down. okay. >> you've got $130,000 made to stormy daniels. >> you add to that the $50,000 made to the red finch organization whose job it was to try to boost the poll ratings for trump at $180,000 here, you've got what cohen would have to be hatcher reimburse his actual payment and then have a little bit of extra to count for taxes. you add that to his bonus. this is where you get the $420,000. and so this the number of binary that you're alluding to when jamie, of course, and john reference this all this money would have had to have left the trump organization or the trunk trust at some points for him to

say michael cohen acted alone and la as i should just mentioned, you can see on your screen there that there is a a break, a brief break going on inside the courtroom but i just want to kind of take a step back and if we use this break to do this, to talk about what we've seen so far this morning. and how it plays into the overall prosecution strategy, because they're the ones asking the witness questions. so let's keep in mind for all the talk and testimony about porn stars and affairs and hush money. this is an accounting case at bottom. this is the trump orgs controller, basically the number two accountant in the organization. there was an email that came through evidence maybe ten minutes ago that i think sort of summarizes the heart of the case in four words. it's an email from josh every my this account with two diane tarasoff, another person who works in finance financing. and he wrote quote post to legal expenses. that is the heart of the allegation that these were actually reimbursements for hush money payments. but the word inside

the trump org was post them as legal expenses say that they are legal. >> so how important do you think? that particular email that email is crucial because it shows that this is what they were doing intentionally inside the trunk borger. but the big catch here is going to be this is remember that we're a couple of levels removed from donald trump. we are not even alawites hilberg, we are alan weisberg, number two. jeffery can you put that knowledge can you impute that knowledge up? chain of command to donald trump there close the right on the precipice and there's a lot of common sense questions i think like john and jamie, we're raising could did michael carbon really have the power to just extract $400,000 for himself or not that's part of the argument and i think michael collins gonna be the one to make the direct link to donald trump. they're making the leap that michael cohen estimated take your narrower rather than the jury having to take michael collins just in a vacuum now they go. okay. we understand how this work now that the link is a little narrower, that michael cohen estimated yes, quickly one step further, some of this money was coming from donald trump's personal account. i think that

ups the ante about how much he cared about it it is brian, i just because we have you here and you were there at the time i want to kind of look at this even holistically going back to the beginning of last week, or maybe midweek when there was all this testimony about what happened when the access hollywood tape came out a big big part of hope hicks his testimony as well. with the prosecution is trying to do is to lay the groundwork on the idea that this was an organization or a person donald trump, who was very concerned, not just about his family and the impact of stormy daniels based on what had already happened with access hollywood, but concerned about his campaign and the impact of the campaign there was a lot of concern in the campaign. fair? >> there. listen, i remember that day. i remember getting off the plane and all the reporters, they're saying that you got too busy afternoon because we're in st. louis for the debate. i vividly remember those but what you're saying is that these two things can

exist that donald trump can't have concerned for his wife. find it about, finding about the second affair or the second situation or circumstance they have like, of course, any human beings going to have that concern. and right there, that's the reasonable doubt you have now the media or anybody else, some sort of point i'm saying these other things matter more than his than his campaign which isn't a couple of days or in a couple of weeks. but in my experience and i've worked with candidates for 25 years the spouse is always matter more than campaign. >> so i think that's very fair. i understand that. i think people can have mixed motives or it could well have said, well, i don't want to damage my campaign asieh, i don't want to damage my marriage the way the law plays on that is as long as they campaign was a substantial motivating factor, it's good enough for prosecutors. you're right that the defense is going to argue while he was only concerned essentially, are predominantly concerned with his family, but people often have motives that are multifaceted, mixed motives. and it's enough for them if they can show that the campaign was a substantial factor. what that means, we'll be up to the jury whether there's proof beyond a reasonable doubt will be what i would add that bridge is completely reliant on

michael cohen the say that that i agree with. now, there's been evidenced throughout this trial, hope hicks and others that it would that can trump was the campaign apparatus was very worried about the stormy daniel's allegations, especially in the wake of the x's hollywood too sure. >> but we're talking about, we're talking about trump or we're talking about when he's getting all this information, you're talking about hope hicks sort of breaking down on the stand and the president trump's you're that conversation happened in february, were alleging this crime that happened in october. so there is some distinctions. the leyen getting blurred of what matters and when it matters at the end of the de in october when this took place, i would say having experienced access hollywood, his primary concern was his wife. now there are other people us who were concerned about the campaign apparatus we're going to him for options, but his concern and has concerned with hope is directly was mulino we're going to have to take a quick break. jurors just left the courtroom for a quick break themselves after technical testimony and donald trump's hush money trial is the prosecution connecting the dots are they getting the jury to buy it much more of cnn special coverage

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friedman, agnes below are back here with me. we've been watching all of these live updates that we're getting from our colleagues and the courtroom. and one thing that's interesting that i think the prosecution it's trying to undermine is an argument that the defense made their opening arguments with the whole trial began for any witnesses and taking a stand, and they said, well, if he was paying michael cohen back for the $130,000, then why did he pay him 400? $20,000 i should know donald trump is walking in the courtroom there with his attorney top pledge mind, and he gave a thumbs up to the camera. >> he didn't speak. >> but they've been making this argument. why would we why did why did they pay him back 420,000? but dollars it was only for 130. this witness, though right now is saying, well, here's why, because we wanted to to basically gross it up for tax purposes and he wanted a $60,000 bonus. >> yeah, he's complaining about the bonus and then there was other money that he had spent. >> my biggest question right now is where is the evidence? >> linking the falsification of business records to the defendant? because again, we've talked about hush money. we've talked about election

interference, what he is charged with here is 34 counts, a falsifying business records. and as of now, macondo has gone through most of the timeline. maybe they're going to get more documents more to the weeds. but as of right now, these checks are about to start going down to washington for him to sign for the then president trump to sign. and mecole even acknowledges, look, this was a new systems. suddenly, you know, trump isn't a charge the organization we have this sunday packages downs. we can sign things. i have not seen evidence directly linking the defendant to the falsifying of business records. this is day 12. this is the witness besides michael cohen, who you think might be able to provide that. so right now, again, i'm just reminded of the fact that federal prosecutors did not bring this case. alvinn brar even waited awhile to bring this case. he was under enormous political pressure right now that is my big question is a reporter, where's the evidence? >> the prosecution surely knows that's going to be one of the first questions the defendant this has four mecole when they get the chance to question this long time trump organization employees. so how did they finish their line of

questioning for him before that happens to but kind of prepare the jury for that so evidence comes in all sorts of forms. >> there's direct evidence, there's video evidence, there's testimonial evidence, there's females, but there's also circumstantial evidence and it's not less strong if the evidence is circumstantial. now here you will have direct evidence of trauma trumps involvement from michael cohen. but then they're going to argue that there's circumstantial evidence that corroborates michael cohen and a lot of that is going to be what? you're hearing from other witnesses about how he's a micromanager, about how he doesn't let go of money very easily. so clearly he must have known what this was about and i thought adam kaufman made an excellent point earlier when he said, it can also be about an omission. why didn't they charge that? that would have been a very strong charge if they had said, okay, fine. you're saying this was a this was a an in-kind campaign donation. fine. but you didn't you didn't you didn't charge

that in your indictment and so they didn't it's an interesting question. i have to think about it because i don't know why they didn't charge it. maybe they didn't know that the evidence they had to pick their theory, which is this is false it was sort of are they together? these theories, are they consistent and jeffrey mcglone has just taken the stand once again, they took a brief break. i'm also struck by just what it's like to be someone who existed in trump's orbit for three decades. this guy is testifying right now in these same witness stand, and he also testified in the exact same one. and the trump civil fraud trial is the same courtroom, same witness stand? >> he's back up. they're testifying and he's someone who appears to about a pleasant experience working for donald trump, had lunch with the cfos now in jail. alan weisberg, every single day for 35 years, he says, and it speaks to what it is like to be someone who is in terms orbit, who's now caught up and everything. >> yeah, it's a great point and a reminder of how many people get get quote unquote,

caught up when they are close to donald trump, they wind up testifying in court and mccartney's case multiple times testifying before congress or them selves indicted, there are significant risks to being too close to donald trump. >> it's just a fact you see this so many times is closest confidants, closest allies, mr. your mccarthy said that he lacked the trump organization a job that he had had for decades because he was so sick of the stress of all the investigations, all the subpoenas, having to testify, he really do feel free. pam, as you said earlier, he broke down on the sandi crying in one of his previous instances where he had to testify, so it is another reminder of these sort of ordinary marry people who are caught in this extraordinary case. but again, mr. matata and my big question is if this is the prosecution's witness so far, i'm still waiting for that connection. who's former boss, do you agree with the other note that adam kaufman made, which is that he said this trials proceeding wave faster than he expected it to go. it

is going going at a fast clip that is for sure. and i agree that the jury selection happened quite quite fast and one could argue based on what trump was saying, that you can't find a fair jury, that that could have taken longer, but they didn't have an issue with that. so yeah, it is going nice and fast and i think that's a good thing for free-body i mean, what if we've no blockbuster witnesses that we still haven't seen take the stand are michael cohen, stormy daniels? i think there's a question of whether or not karen mcdougal would actually get on the stand? >> she's going to be involved in this. we've been openly speculating. it's a long witness list. it doesn't mean they're going to bring every witness on that list. >> yeah, the witness list is not just people they intend to call well, but also names that you're going to hear because you use that witness list to a keep your options open in case certain things come out that you'd think oh, yeah, i really want to call that person but you also want to ask the jiri, do you have any personal relationships and things like that with anybody that names that you're going to hear. so

that's what the list typically includes. and it's people you could call. >> yeah. i'm looking at this list right now. i mean, karen mcdougal, it's unclear exactly what she would offer zeros that they don't already know. callahan conway, it seems like the thing that she would most likely contribute is testifying to the impact the access hollywood tape had on the campaign. hope hicks cover that pretty clearly and given kelly and conway's a mental ward, we'll see you trump a they may not want to take the risk and putting her on the stand. so we know stormy daniels would likely to call it michael cohen and at least one other official from the trump organization accounting department and that official from the trump organization from an accountant, would be able to shed light on what geoff mcglone testifying about right now, which is really i mean, i think everyone wants to see what michael cohen is going to say on the san obviously is considered the star witness here. >> also, stormy daniels to take the sad, but it's really these two witnesses potentially who are going to be the ones who are really walking through what's at the heart of this and how they got to this. they may not be you as blockbuster, but they may be just as

critical. you are absolutely right this is the kind of testimony supposed to make the case, introducing evidence, introducing documents, to establish that is 34 business business records were falsified. >> now the jury is seated again, the prosecutors zooming his question, mr.. mcglone, but we've been listening to him all morning is so far again, have not seen evidence and i know michael cohen will testify, but what makes him unique as a witness? in addition to his previous conviction for lying is the fact that he has made a career out of hating on the defendant, trying to get revenge attacking him criticizing him yeah. >> border this morning exactly. >> four years. so if you're in the jury box, can you take just is no, you need more, which is why we're looking in the to see if he provides that we'll see how prosecutors continue this line of questioning whether or not they address the elephant in the room. there. he is now back on the stand. this is a trump inside are giving the jury a window into how money was managed interest, and how it was allegedly approved by the boss, donald trump

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workings of his company. the panel is back here and i want it sort of catch us up on what is happening with this testimony by jeffrey a. mcglone. first of all, the vouchers are business records tied to several of the 34 falsifying business records charges against trump. trump's team is objecting to an exhibit. >> lawyer there's are at the judge's bench, jagan, you were kind of alluding to this notion of the payment structure, which it looks like they're starting to talk about. and it sounds like so alec trump's lawyers are not happy about it. >> i have a couple of places mcglone make clear that the money was coming from trump's personal account, not the trump trust or.org. >> i think that may be significant. >> i just want to go back to trump cares about money. we've seen it with nato. we heard mccartney say that if he

didn't negotiate enough trump had said to him, you're fired and then he said you weren't fired i just think that it a certain point there is common sense here that donald trump would not have paid michael cohen back if he did not want this done. but i know andy mccabe loves we were talking about the paper trail here yeah. >> you want to see the argument built brick by brick. and in this case, the argument is that donald trump was personally involved in these payments, therefore, had knowledge of the false business records and that's what gets you the conviction. and so with this witness, particularly, that's what you're seeing them try to build that argument. so far they've gotten very close to donald trump. they've gotten as close to don junior and eric, but no direct references to interactions between mcglone trump. and so it raises i think a very important question if that's all they get at the end of this trial how much to the

jurors are the jurors able to conclude, hey, there's enough smoke here, enough common sense to assume that there's fire or are they actually precluded from making that inference because there's no direct evidence, so there's two answers to that. >> number one, i believe michael cohen will give that direct connection in his testimony, whether they credit that will be the source of much controversy and much debate among the lawyers but prosecutors will say michael cohen was the one who brought this, right to donald trump himself. and second to your point, andi lawyers are allowed to argue and jurors are allowed to draw what we call reasonable inferences. well, i mean, the example that judges used to give in the courthouse was let's say we're in a room with no windows. let's say this courtroom, we have the windows were all drawn and you saw someone walk in the back of the courtroom and they were holding a wet umbrella and wearing rain boots, and they were at drops of water coming off then you can you can infer from that that it's raining outside. you can't necessarily look outside and see that it's raining. but when you see this guy walk begin with an umbrella. you can think, gee, that must mean it's raining. so that's fair

play too. so i think prosecutor is going to make both of those arguments, but i just go back to what you were saying about part of your answer to andy was about michael collins testimony? >> the question and what landed davis was here saying last week and what we've heard him and michael cohen say publicly is that they claim it goes beyond testimony that they have some kind of evidence, some kind of paper trail, whether to whether it's contemporaneous communication or something to make it beyond the ward of michael cohen and they they they're hoping they do because it is that gap that can be filled by inference. but that gap can also create reasonable doubt. in the minds of those jurors. if you can't make that brick by brick connection, you're leaving an opening for potential reasonable doubt is alan yslow berg, are those handwritten notes and his relationship with trump enough to make that link i haven't seen a strict bulls-eye the

bulls-eye would be an email from michael cohen, donald trump, who of course, as you all know does not email or text but say, hey, we're going to do this as legal fees. >> it's to pay me back for stormy daniels. i don't think that exists, but there's a lot of other documentation we're seeing now that gets them closer and we should say that what they're talking about and what the judge overruled. the defense on was a document maybe now a series of documents well, actually, it's one document. it's the donald j. trump revocable trust say that five times and it was from january 1, 2017 to december 31st, 2018. >> he was in the white house then and so you're trying to the accounting testimony, if you will, the math the documents to show where the money switch that's key part of it here. >> so all his transactions. here's where the money went. number to the testimony from everybody that no. you couldn't spend more than a dime without donald trump signing off on it. so that when you get to the $420,000 you have in your mind, it is trump has to have sign this off and

then the testimony from others about how important michael cohen was to donald trump before their relationship when south. so that when they attack michael cohen's credibility, which is pretty easy, because he's a liar he is a liar. he was a liar before he was found guilty of lying. as donald trump's spokesman and as donald trump's enforcer and donald trump's fixer, he was a liar and that he was actually convicted of light. and so you have to make the case that the prosecutor tried to make the case that these were peas in a pod. donald trump trusted michael cohen when this was happening. this is what michael cohen did for donald trump, when this was happening. and yes, then the relationship when south and the s. are not always credible, but in this moment, he was doing donald trump's work. that's the case. they're trying to make the documentation the documents and the testimony, and the math is to get the jury thinking this could not happen without trump's approval for when they attack michael cohen, which again is pretty easy, kristen, i want to bring you in go ahead. >> no. >> i was i was because i i've got my tablets hold on the tablet. that's all i've got.

a radical will give it a as you talk to the trump campaign, the current trump campaign, not the one back in 2016. >> as they watch this kind of testimony what's the reaction i think there is an overarching belief that at the end of the day, donald trump is probably either going to have a hung jury or that they are going to rule against him in this case as they go through this. now, a lot of this is going to be from the campaign's perspective, a way for them too. point, too political interference to say that this is an issue with the election, et cetera, et cetera. what we've heard time and time again. obviously, that is not true but the one thing that they continued to hold onto when they hold onto this notion of potential for a hung jury is the idea that michael cohen is not a credible witness. and the idea that they believe that you can continue to paint him as not a credible witness. now, one thing i will say is that this is moving a lot faster for them than they ever thought it would. they think this can be done in a matter of weeks, much

shorter because of the fact that these witnesses at the prosecution is you're not going to see the defense sit there for hours and go through that. they don't want to they don't want to go through that with stormy daniels either. they don't want that over and over and over, repeated. what happened was stormy daniels. >> so all that's going to move pretty quickly until you get to michael cohen. >> and that's why they think this is going to end faster. >> they hold onto your tablet because i know we've exciting stuff on your tablet coming. >> how's that for a a paper trail is again a critical focus for prosecutors this morning at trump organization insider is still on the stand on direct examination. much more sienna? in special live pepper jethro quick, quick here to get your side of the store fairs bribery, prostitution. >> why do we keep ending up here? you can't write this stuff. united states of scandal with jake tapper. now streaming on macs yeah, introducing nets plaque psoriasis. he thinks is flaky red patches are all

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payment by payment, handwritten note. >> my handwritten notes. prosecutor, right now is laying down the building blocks that they are going to use to try to corroborate the word of the star witness that we have yet to see in this case. it is just a few seconds past noon near manhattan and then you are watching cnn's special live coverage of donald trump's hush money trial. i'm kaitlan collins. >> right now. jeffrey mccartney is on the stand. you're a trump organization insider. he was the keeper of that ledger visit, the heart of this case and it includes payments from the trump trust, his personal one, to michael cohen, which were labeled as legal expenses, payments a prosecutor say in reality, we're just reimbursements for money that the fixer and trump personal attorney allegedly funneled so. stormy daniels as part of a scheme to silence her, amir

would see chief legal affairs correspondent paul arrayed and also the former manhattan district attorney prosecutor, a karen friedman, agnes hello great to have you both back here. right now. what they're walking through is basically how michael cohen got paid and one thing that stands out and would be my question, maybe if i was a durer as well, if trump was just reimbursing michael cohen as the defenses claimed, why not just do a one for one payment? why are we looking at each of these different checks? >> of him paying michel foucault and $35,000 a month. >> and the year 2017? >> yeah. look, i think it's a great question. i will see trump is focused on the screen in front of him. our colleagues inside report that trump has been asked focused on mecole during his testimony as he has been on any other witness, i think that's fascinating. right. you can read that one of two ways. one, he knows this is significant, but also this is something that he, someone who worked for him for decades at the trump organization is paying the con is a legal fees and he expects loyalty, but now they're going through his ledger line by line, as you said, they are are noting how

each line item list the retainer agreement payment to michael cohen. and this is significant because each of those entries, those are tied to each other 34 counts of falsifying business records, but i've said this multiple times this morning. the one thing that we haven't seen this morning is a direct link to the defendant to any of these documents any of these payments. >> but when they're looking at this though, and they're looking at these payments. i mean, it does seem clear that it was money disguised as income. if they're sending in these $35,000 a month and it's ultimately adding up to what alan yslow bergen, this employee right now, sat down and decided accent for just 130 k and also to give them the 60 gray and he was asking for two essentially fulfill his bonus as he argued. >> i mean, without a doubt, a crime was committed the question though, is, how do they link that to donald trump? and that's what's been

missing so far. i mean, they've proven ten ways to sunday that this was a fall century that this was not just a reimbursement, that this was disguised to look like incomes so that they can pay some taxes. and michael cohen will get more money. but trump will just say, look, that was michael cohen. he devised this scheme and alan yslow berg, who's in jail, he went along with it but it had nothing to do with me. i was busy. i was president. this was all during 2017 when don my sons don and eric were running the company. i was busy managing the country. so that's what he's going to say. we have yet to hear that direct link as a former prosecutor, i mean, the fact that trump is more attuned to this testimony than anyone else, then hope hicks then david pecker, than keith davidson. >> what does that say to you? what would you read into that if you were sitting at that prosecution table? >> i mean, look he knew where

he knows where all the bodies are buried, right? jeff mcglone worked there for 30 plus years. he he dealt with all the checks the ledgers, the entries with alan yslow berg, who has gone to jail now twice on behalf of donald trump. he had lunch with him every day. >> so see what he's going to say. i mean, i'm not surprised that he's he's staring at him and focused and mccartney right now is explaining the ten, for $420,000 that was sent to me michael cohen for the year of 2017. he says he's helped prepare trumps annual financial statements to the office of government ethics. this is someone who is closely involved in trump's money. i think that's another key maybe why trump is paying so close attention. and maybe it makes the point that prosecutors have been making all along. is that trump cares deeply about as money and who's handling it? now he's watching the person who has been doing that for 30 decades do it and the update that we're getting right now is that trump had to file the financial disclosure reports from the time he was a candidate for president. of course, we know that part of

this is also that this was not honore the paid michael cohen this much money for this reason. >> that's right. because there's 34 counts of falsifying business records are charged as a felony because prosecutors alleged that this was hold on as part of a conspiracy to help trump in the election again, we're talking about his disclosures for the time he was a candidate has ethics report to even the general ledger. these are all great. he tells to have about the trunk, trunk organization, but mecole has not provided any evidence that trump is directly involved in any of this. i think the defense is going to argue i would expect that one and y so bargain others. this was their job. >> and while trump was involved in a lot of aspects of this business, he was nowhere near is involved once he became the leader of the free world. but i do wonder so because as a candidate and as president, he did have to file these financial disclosure forms and we'd get them we've looked through them, we tell much money you made, what he lost. >> this was at the time that trump was really the only indication should we add in

insight into trump's finances because he was refusing to release his taxes as every candidate, dating back to i think nixon had released their tax return turns and he thought his entire four years in the white else claimed he was under audit. >> so we really only got to see these forms. these are forms that this employee who former employee with nehl testifying was the one one in charge of preparing them? >> yeah, absolutely. it's still how we get a lot of information about how much money he's paying his lawyers, which firms are doing the most work. but that's not the way they charged case they charged the cases falsifying business records. and i'm sure that you have some idea as to about exactly how they tried to tie this into election interference. but right now, this is about falsifying business records. we've gone through them the way that this was set up this payment to michael cohen and there's no evidence that trump was directly involved. now, the first time they went through the document, mecole one says that they went through it a disease so they're talking about his financial disclosures. maybe this is where we're going to get to some direct evidence tying these allegations and these business records to the

defendant. >> yeah obviously, did you're seeing the prosecution walk through each of these documents and we are told that the jurors are paying very close attention despite the fact that it's a bit repetitive at times, they are talking about each invoice, each payment michael cohen and mcglone saying that as he was helping trump fill out those financial disclosure forms that he had to fill out as a candidate. and then later as president is that one point was 4:00 in the morning, but they were filing those documents wow thank you so much kaitlan. >> back here the point that katelyn made about how this is maybe getting a bit mundane when you're talking about invoice after invoice document after document? >> this is the idea of documents. >> and what did and didn't happen vis-a-vis donald trump and michael cohen is at the heart of the prosecution's case. maybe not these particular documents. but as you were saying, andi so well and it bears repeating. they're

trying to build the case brick by brick by brick trump's trump's team is gonna say cobos a liar, colon is going to say trump is a liar, or they're going to question each other's credibility. >> maybe they don't use the term liar. so if you have a document and you say here it is in black and white, you have an accountant who says this is how the process worked that helps you get through the flame throwing. and there's going to be flying for me about the credibility of these witnesses and mecole says, after that they split it up. he says he handled melania trump's forgive me. i miss that leyen a trumps at issues. and not necessarily donald trump's trumps legal team raises another object section over the financial disclosure document lawyers are at the judge's bench, can i say you guys were talking about this? >> i think during one of the breaks that trump's team has objected to just about every document what's your just your experience and what is the jury think of that when they watch it every time something comes up that jump, they jump up an object. >> it's there, right? it's how it works, but is there a

tipping point at some point? >> well, remember, they are not allowed to give what's called speaking objections. where are they going to say objection and then give a whole list of the reasons why trying to get some arguing for the jiri, they'll say objection, the judge there sustain or overrule any argument happens at the bench proudly out of the earshot. a jury for the very reason you're probably implying that the jury is going to get exhausted by thinking what's happening here. is there an issue normally you wouldn't want to have the visible notion that you are backing to everything because it make you say, well, what's the problem with this? but just to go back to the mundane aspect of this when i go to my tablet here because we're on what this is week three or four of this round, that's down, if you don't count, you don't know because you're already know. we can bring number of people the only people you really probably had the most testimony from his band, from david pecker on the catch and kill scheme. >> and now jeffrey mccartney, that's the person who has the two connections here, about the money and the actual records. that's important to think about here. also remember it for each of these documents, look at the indictment. you have 34 counts. it looked just

like this for a jury, would they have to prove the following things, intent to defraud and tend to commit another crime, eight and consume the commission of it. and of course, the false entering all of the documents the documents is the most important part of this, which brings you to why it's so mundane they have to have all these different documents that have to come in as evidenced, but they were actually falsified in a way this is why this particular witness is going to be so important in thinking about all these things. and remember, it comes down to the numbers here. you're talking about a total of 402 $20,000. why is this important it was all said to be put as legal fees. >> now, the course to prosecution wants you to think that the reimbursements were not legal fees. they were not they were about trying to shield it from the actual general public in the campaign statements. but keep in mind who we're talking about. jeffrey mccartney, he's been here before for testifying for days on end in the civil fraud trial about the over inflation of assets in the past. and look at what he said, breaking down on the stand when he had for fourth day of testimony, talked about why he gave up his job. i

just wanted to relax and stop being accused of misrepresenting assets for the company that i loved working for it. i'm sorry. >> guess what? hi is here today for the misrepresentation by not himself, but by donald trump potentially, as he's being accused of in this very notion. >> and we should also underscore that he is there as a proxy of sorts for allan weiss, who is not testifying for several reasons, not the least of which is that he is in jail yeah. >> to john's question about objections this is a sort of courtroom tactic when you're in law school and you're taking evidence or trial advocacy workshop. you are taught to every oh, that's technically incorrect. i object when you get into the real-world and you're in a courtroom, someone wants told me a supervisor, this is not law school here. you don't object to everything because every time you inject the jury takes notes and goes, oh, they must be worried about that. they must be considered heard about that. so you want to keep a poker face? i was always sort of an under objector. i would just let things go because unless your client is telling you well, let's why we don't.

>> the only thing to be more are aggressive exactly. not necessarily what you want as the lawyer, but it's also and i appeal to him as well. >> judge, just accepted that dutch so i noticed when i was there was a moment when trump i mean, he wasn't just like sending a note over your behind him. he is like slapping the elbow of todd. i mean, like literally like todd lenses are moved. he's slapping every time and tying himself and i come over here. he is very involved. we believe me is assess defender. so he believes that when he's telling his lawyers is the right way to defend him. now, obviously, if you are a lawyer, you know how a court of law we're satisfying the client. but just to take the opposite side of the argument, he's also although they're losing all these objections, they are preserving them for the record as things does that they could potentially bring up on appeal and quite frankly, it's a way tactically to break up the flow of the prosecutors question to the to the witness. so if you're worried that the jury is actually following this monday and document evidenced in the way i am. you break that up, you throw in these interruptions and it makes it harder to remember. >> and laura, i'm glad that

you've brought caught up the fact that you were there, you were inside the courtroom because we were getting these wonderful notes on a minute by minute basis from our colleagues who are in there. but it's not the same as actually the look, the feel all of the senses that you my goodness, it was one thing that strikes you immediately having been in so many courtrooms, right? >> is the how ordinary this courtroom is? i mean, you had the only thing that's extraordinary about the courtroom is that donald trump is inside of it you have him not guarded by a slew of a perimeter of secret service, but instead corp personnel who are armed two or blocking your ability to get to him the witness is pointing directionally towards the jury, who by the way, is intently taking notes, leaning in. they have screens in front them to be able to see the documents are falling along each time they're faces are almost ping-ponging between the question by the prosecution or defence, right? witness, very few were looking over towards where donald trump is sitting. it's really fast and think about how routine this matter

is. as is the fact that most of the time in many cases they're going to be routine amounts of evidence. you're not going to have the perry mason or the law and order movement moment that comes in. they're gonna follow along in documents. and of course, here you go. mccartney identifying signature saying he's seen it many times. remember why this is important, because part of what the evidence has to be or the signed falsified allegedly business records. and so the jury, they've heard from the likes of course of david pecker at about catch and kill. they think they're going to hear from likely maybe it's for me daniel's michael cohen, et cetera. probably not karen but doable at this point because it would go backwards in time back to the catch and kill prior to now the the business records, but it's possible they're going to have to get settled in. but when i saw are these jurors that are paying attention, they are leaning forward. they are literally taking notes and even in the moment when hope hicks began to cry other day they stopped writing, looked very intently, leaned in and that was the moment they look towards donald

trump to see what his reaction what was it? >> well, i'll talk traction was actually when i saw concern when she walked by him, his eyebrows raised as if to show some concern as he looked right at her she's sort of shielded her face with her hair, going to one side of her neck and almost shrunk herself going behind his table to then leave the room followed by prosecution because of course, remember, she's their witness, not as a cooperator, not as like anyone, but as we've got subpoenaed, but they had to know she could keep going on all right. everybody the accountant giving the nuts and bolts, details of what is at its core an accounting case, direct examination of a trump insider is still underway right now. >> you're white cnn special live coverage. stay with us trump hush money trial gavel to gavel coverage. >> the weight only cnn can bring it to you. legal insight expert analysis, and real-time

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>> my favorite for just $40 a month. >> he was for $40 a month. sling lets you do that. neutral. gina beach, defense blocks 97% of burning uv rays for vital sun protection. so you can get more out of all your days in the sun more protection, more sun, more joy, neutro, gina i'm kayla tausche at the white house. >> and this cnn welcome back to scene. >> it's a special lot coverage just now inside that courtroom behind me, the cross-examinatio n of a key trump organization insider has started with trump attorney and veal beauvais doing the questioning prosecution step down moments after the witness. his name is geoff mcglone identified donald trump's signature on a financial documents he had seen it many times and my panel is back here with me, paulo read and karan freeman agnes below. and this is getting interesting because this is trump's attorney questioning longtime

trauma glory we know tropism paying very close attention and he just said, president trump did not ask you to do any of the things that the prosecutor described to you and the connie this longtime trump employee, said he did not, and he is saying that he didn't have a lot of interaction with donald trump. he said they did not speak directly very often is listing several years asking if macartney talk to trump in 20 16, 2017, 2018, or ever? i did not this is the defenses. >> kaitlan. we knew they were going to get up and then we're going to say mr. mcglone. >> did the defendant asked you? you to do any of these things because throughout mcglone testimony, he provided no direct evidence that trump was involved. we have an update. the defense attorney, it says mccartney testified to a series of emails involving on but asked if he ever spoke to cohen about any of the issues no. talked to michael. now, she's saying he did not talk to michael collins. so at this point mcglone has is not provide a direct evidence linking the alleged crimes to the defendant. and i think you're going to see the defense attorneys and just hammer this again and again,

mean mcglone says he didn't talk to trump three years, including 2017, which is the year when this alleged criminal conduct occurred. so this feels like it could be a feeding frenzy for the defense attorneys. >> how does the jury here that i mean, they just listened to him walk through obviously, a person who is intimately familiar karan, with the trump organization worked there for three decades. he had lunch with the cfo every single day. how did they hear him say? well, i actually didn't have all that much interaction with donald trump i think the jury is going to be paying very close attention because here they see that there is a crime that has been committed, but they're looking to link it to the defendant. >> and the defense attorney is doing a good job at seizing on the one issue. the one thing they have to focus on, right? because you can't there's no with the paper case, papers don't lie, right documents don't lie. they are what they are. but here they have a lot of room to work with in terms of the fact that you didn't deal directly with donald trump

and it's a big hole in the prosecution's case so far. mean we haven't seen everything yet. >> yeah. this is just getting started. is the cross-examinati on of this trump organization insider is happening. we also have robert her showing here with us she is an attorney and a jury consultant and isn't walking through every step of this trial with us. and robert right now, the cross-examinatio n is happening. trump's attorney is asking this witness, showing them emails from michael cohen and 2017, where cohen signature block as they are and it says attorney doesn't say fixer, which is often what michael cohen is known as and he just said it doesn't say fixer does it? mechanic confirms know what do you make of this leyen of questioning from trump's attorneys yeah. kaitlan. >> thanks for having me back. >> cases are won and lost on cross-examination, not direct examination. >> and the fact that what he's trying to do is the whole idea, the moniker of the fixer that's not what this case is about. this is an accounting

case. this is a crucial witness. he's an accountant if anybody did anything regarding how to record these records, how to put them in the books? it's the accountants, not trump. and the fact that this witness said that he never had direction from trump to falsify any records. that's a huge problem. for the prosecution's case well, and also, i imagined this question maybe something and the prosecution i should uh, we'll get a chance to read question this witness butt mecole was just asked if he knows one way or another whether or not michael cohen actually did legal work for for donald trump in 2017. >> he says, i do not know. now we know there are other instances out there. people like rudy giuliani saying that michael cohen wasn't doing any legal work, that he was getting paid. but they're trying to make the point and draw some distance that mccarthy himself doesn't know and that cohen was not using a trump organ email account, a trump

organization email account. he was just using his own personal gmail what do you think of that well, i also think that prosecution's also using the wrong guy the guy that the prosecution ought to have up on the witness stand is allen, who's currently in the crossbars motel. >> and by the way, the president trump keeps violating the gag order, he's also going to get a little taste of the crossbars motel if he's not careful. so look, here's the point this is the only person the prosecution could have that talk about the accounting side at least so far? he's the highest one up so far from the trump org side he has not provided a kaitlan crucial link between the crime and the defendants either knowledge about it or ordering that the documents be falsified. it's a big problem, and i'm telling you if they don't fix this problem, what you're looking at is this kind of verdict,

right here of a not guilty even from a predominantly democratic jury they have to follow the evidence in the case. and if the state doesn't link all this off you're coming in with him, not guilty yeah. >> we'll see if that reasonable doubt gap there is created. robert hirshhorn. thank you for that. and as we are monitoring this, this key trump inside are now being cross-examined by trump's attorneys right now. they are pointing to an invoice for cohen, asked why isil berg that's what it was just referring to is serving time, but riker's right now to call him to discuss an open foundation matter, and karan paulo trump has been very closely paying attention to this testimony. interesting, it seems more closely than you did with keith davidson or david pecker or hope hicks. how is the jury? i mean, they're not just watching the prosecution and the witness and the defense attorney. they're also watching the defendant at times. >> they're watching everything juries notice everything they're going to notice who's in a courtroom on behalf of

donald trump, for example, and who's not eric trump's their elena harb was there but they haven't seen millennia. they haven't seen his other children so they're going to notice that what they do with it, who knows, but they're going to notice all of those things. they're gonna notice what what, what what the defendant is doing, what what mr. trump is doing if he's focusing on a witness, if he's sleeping, if he's whatever it is, they're going to notice that he really cares about this witness if he's really focusing on it, and this is important. >> i'm starting to see a new line defense. it appears from trump's team, which is that how much the way the trump organization did business changed once he went to washington? yeah. and that's why you heard mcconnell? one really one of his first answer was talked about yes, trump his hands on, he knew everything that was going on up until 2017 and the problem for prosecutors is that what they have alleged these 34 counts falsifying business records, all occurred in 2017 so now you're going to see defense attorneys are really drill down on that, how dramatically did you need to change? the way you did

business once the head of your organization, wright had to divest from the business, pass it off to his sons and alan weisberg, and also became a leader of the free world right now, the defense attorney asks, when trump move to dc and took office, the trump organization internally was in flux and chaos. that's putting it mildly mecole says, and this is really going to be significant because they're going to argue that what transpired here wasn't and the result of a conspiracy. instead, it was the result of chaos, which so often as we know in trump world is the explanation, or at least the defense against conspiracy it's that they're just not organized enough to engage in them. i'm told we have another update mecole says, the way of doing business that the company wants, trump became president, had to change dramatically. he says, i don't remember seeing him in new york at all after trump became president as we're seeing this, karan, if you are in there and you're the prosecution stable, what do you get back up? >> say to this witness? how do you try to redirect this line of questioning at the jury's just hearing this guy never talked to trump. but the way

they did business drastically changed after mr. trump became president send and that it was a chaotic situation to put it mildly look, the reason all this stuff about alan weissberg and michael cohen is coming in normally that would be hearsay, but it's all coming in because it's coconspirator statements which is an exception to the hearsay rule. >> i think they're going to focus on the pieces of evidence but instead our strongest to their case involving them. and they'll just highlight that from connie. but look, the prosecution, they know what other evidence they have coming down the road. they know the things they're trying to corroborate that michael cohen is going to testify to. so there might be things in here that are much more important that we don't no about because they haven't tied it all together yet in summation, right? >> i mean, there are basically trying to say that this witness had no idea what michael cohen was doing for donald trump? >> yeah. it's gotten some giggles in the court. right? what exactly did he do evs even

asked him by defense attorneys, he was a lawyer and he's like, yeah, sure. okay and it's also get into this idea that we call him a fixer. >> we knew what michael cohen did is this consider biliary for trump, but and he is email signature. it says that he was an attorney for trial so defense attorneys are going to seize on that and say, look, it's not like this idea that he was being paid for legal services is it that far fetched even if it was hush money, even if it was other things that he was doing they're going to insist that during the time that he was paid, that he was doing his version of legal work for trump. unclear if that's going to be successful, but that's where they're going to take i think the other issue we've talked about, michael cohen's credibility ad nauseam. but what happens when michael cohen's up there and yeah, they are going to try to cross-examine and i'm going to have this have this tough question. a lot of questioning brim, but also isn't there just a reminder constantly that this is who donald trump pick to be his personal attorney. i mean, he's the one who afforded

michael cohen such proximity to him and kept tom on the payroll and had him handling these things for him. >> and that's going to be the argument that the prosecution makes very common argument is we wish that a crime occurred in front of a bus full of nuns, but doesn't always happen in the witnesses are going to be the people that are closest proximity. the midi to the defendant. he's the one who chose them. these are the people he chose the, he, the journalist he befriended david pecker, the people he was around where people who adult film stars and playboy models and michael cohen and those are the people he's surrounded i'm self-worth. we didn't pick these witnesses the defendant did. >> well, how do we think the jury watches this? because obviously it all matters is a reasonable doubt. how what they're the ultimate deciders here as we know when they're watching a meal bove the tromp attorney who's questioning them right now. he's quite tough on

this witness saying you didn't really talk to trump that much. you never saw him in new york after he became president and you didn't speak to him these three successive years what do you think is the tactic and the trump defense teams strategy here and how they're questioning him and creating that distance. >> yeah, they want to find the daylight between the alleged crime and their client and they're doing a good job at finding that with geoff mcglone, didn't talk to trump, had never got direct order from their client and they really want to hone in on that to establish to the jury that the prosecution has not proven this beyond a reasonable doubt. that is their strategy to put distance between trump and these documents and also secondarily to argue that cohen was engaging in legal services so they have sort of a multi-pronged approach. they're going to take here. but the most important thing is to remind the jury there is no direct link between their client and these falsified records. >> does the jury pay attention? to who is there supporting the defendant because we've been talking a lot about trump's family, hasn't really been at

court. eric trump is there now today, he was the first family member for it to come since the trial started. this is only his second day being there. trump's attorney from the civil fraud trial, which you lost. what was also is also in the room today along with another attorney bores i'm john, who was indicted recently in arizona, that thick electoral scheme. obviously the jiri likely know each of these individuals are, but do they pay attention to whether or not his family is present in the room? >> absolutely. that's something that juries very much notice is who is there supporting them, who's not supporting them? there's all sorts of unspoken things that they noticed. they will notice someone it's demeanor, they'll notice who's who's physically there with them, supporting them. they'll notice who's not there they noticed that everything they're taking it in there trying to get it right. they want to figure out what happened. and get it. all right. and so they take everything and they notice, oh, wow, the lawyers objecting to this piece of evidence. they must really not want this it's piece of evidence coming in. i really want to hear what that evidence

is because it must be so important because they're objecting and they're having a bench conference and they i know this because i've spoke okay. into juries. >> so that's interesting. so then okay. so if you're a der, they tried to introduce this evidence and they said no, no, no. and then they all go up to tip. they talk about it and hush tones. i was watching this when i was in the root and the courtroom last this week, if the judge did, then does allow that evidence to be in there. does it take on heightened importance for the jury absolutely. >> yeah, i think so and look they've also said, if someone's objecting constantly, constantly, they can get frustrated with the lawyer to like, let witness talk. it there's all these decisions as an attorney you have to make and decide. okay. is it worth objecting to even though i technically could i don't want to annoy the jiri. i don't want them to think that i'm hiding from a piece of evidence that it doesn't really hurt me that much. even though i could keep it out, things like that, you don't want to send those subtle messages. what's interesting to me about what's going on is also the fact that for a long time the lead lawyer was todd

blanche, but a meal beauvais has really stepped up and is doing all the big important witnesses. >> it was that the plan polo. >> so i know that the defense team is squarely focused on what they view as code the important witnesses i would anticipate the blanches likely squarely focused on the testimony of michael cohen because we expect that the cross-examination their could go on for days how does really what will make or break. now, i would argue that the prosecutors haven't actually made their case yet, so there's nothing to break. but if they do undercutting michael cohen is todd blanches number one priority. i also want to say at the karen is talking about what they notice we have an update. other defense attorney asks whether it was 60 million in unrestricted cash economy replied, at least they're talking about how much money trump had in his account it's time, trump's decorum in the courtroom talking about things that juries, der notice has been a complete one at from what we saw on the civil cases where he would mutter on his

breath, he was sort of makes comments, he was incredibly disruptive as was his attorney. so they have definitely taken a different approach. the defense attorney notes of the accounting system used by the trump organization was quite so antiquated by 2017. and that it had been designed in the 1990s. >> i should note that attorney who was in there when you was much more disruptive is seated in the second row. now, polaroids, karan for you hello, we are watching all of this closely. the witness is chuckling on the sandi. you confirms that? yes. the accounting system at the trump organization was antiquated. this cross-examination is continuing the question is the witness has gotten where is elicited? i don't i do not know or no idea already, we have much more from our reporters inside that courtroom. >> just ahead we're here to get your sayyed of the a fares library prostitution. >> why do we keep ending up? >> you can't write this stuff. >> united states of scandal with jake tapper. oh, streaming

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cnn. the world's news welcome back right now, the trump accountant who kept the trump ledger is under cross-examined. >> amination. we just called the tropp method of keeping the books, quote, antiquated he also admitted the trump system of keeping the books was rigueur. the defense is clear surely trying to give the jury potential reasons why the reimbursements to michael cohen were labeled legal expenses on panel is here now an la i wanted be wait a sort of weigh in on what we're seeing with this cross-examination by the defense. you don't know? i'm

just going to read what's on the screen now. you don't know do you how if at all, mr. cohen treated the payments and now he's testifying about how those payments were not just made, but how they were actually kept in a locked drawer because it was kept in the payroll book, which contains sensitive information, including social security numbers. okay. two big themes on the cross-examination of geoffrey mcglone advanced by donald trump's lawyers. the first one is you didn't have direct contact with donald trump. all this accounting stuff. you just laid out for us, did you ever discuss this with donald j. trump? he said no. in fact, surprisingly, he said he didn't speak with donald trump at all. and i think the year is 2016, 17 and 18 they're trying to distance trunk the second thing they're arguing as to why was this money repaid to michael cohen is $420,000. they're arguing essentially, michael cohen and his hand in the cookie jar here, michael cohen saw this sort of antiquated system with a lot of flux and chaos, where there's an open legal matter actually, and they're arguing michael cohen came up with the

scheme to enrich himself. he displayed what's happening right now. one of the reasons you want to keep salaries and bonuses secure is because you don't want rumors about who's making what this is. beauvais, who was an attorney for donald trump? yes. mechanics. right. so he's arguing there's not a lot of transparency even within the organization and that michael cohen, they're arguing, knew how to maneuver if you like this to help himself to a little extra cash. and if anything, they're trying to argue donald trump was essentially the victim of this. he wasn't trying to overpay michael cohen all this money. >> and there is two big points to one. here's the question president trump did not ask you to do any of the things that were described by the prosecution in response, he is said, no, he did not. that's going to be the theme for all of us. we've heard a lot about the intimation, almost like it's a mob boss we hear about over time i'll never actually tell you directly the order, but you know, you got a nice place here, hazy anything happened to it. >> they have to do more than this inference. >> you can certainly have inferences. we have to actually do more about this and think so important to think about going

forward, we have to show that this is actually the intentional actions of donald trump. and he described there is a pre white house trump organization and a post white house to bring station in the latter, you got eric and don junior and control he described chaos in terms of being able to run we don't have anyone yet to testify about what it was like when the trump organization wants something signed and it had to go in front of donald trump at the oval office what happened then? how much was he aware? what did he really know and remember all the documents that are being 34 accounts or post white house inauguration which is important because because you have to have if there's chaos according to that fence, right now, there's chaos in the trump organization. if you don't know what's going on, i've trump does not have a particular fingerprint on everything, then it could be left to reasonable doubt to suggest that he actually knew it was happening and the critical line of questioning saru real quick that we just saw that there was hundreds of millions of dollars dollars and sort of liquid available cash. >> they're going argue house donald trump going to keep

track of 100,100, 30,000, which is half of a percent or something of all that that's one of the arguments they're making. >> again, just to kinda bring it back to the core. has this witness done anything for the prosecution to make their case to bolster their case, that donald trump was involved in this scheme to cook the books and to do it for the benefit of his campaign, cook the books we haven't seen any testimony that affected, in fact, is the laura is just pointed out. he says he didn't talk to trump about this, right? you don't connect the dots there. so in that case, it actually earlier he said that the trump was involved in every major financial decision that nobody had the you that it had to go up to trump to spend any serious amount of money. so that predicate, that trump knows if a serious amount of cash is being spent is there, but to the point they're all making about directly connecting the dots and to the point of having covered trials a long time ago. reasonable doubt, you get a couple of jurors to say, well, wait a

minute, this doesn't look right this is fishy, but they proved it happened. they didn't prove he did. it. >> can play juror for a minute. the checks are being written. some of them from his personal account he is signing the checks not every ceo insists. i imagined in signing every single check. so to me that says involvement and to me the one thing is making michael cohen hole, making this is the evidence for his taxes if it's just reimbursement, you don't pay taxes. we're going to sneak in a quick break and continue this conversation much more of our live coverage of donald trump's trial next hi scuba torres was the absolute peak of his celebrity in olympic heroes, shocking murder trial we learned a much darker individual how would really happen with jesse l. >> martin sunday at nine on cnn

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negotiations for a cease fire yeah, dana, this could be a tremendously significant moment for so many people for the millions of people in gaza who have been suffering during the course of this seven months war for the families of the hostages who have been waiting for an opportunity to get their loved ones out of gaza to be able to embrace those loved ones. >> for, the, first time. but i do want to caveat this news with the fact that we are only at this point hearing from hamas, we have yet to hear from the mediators from the united states or from the israeli government. but hamas did just released a statement on their official telegram channels saying that it's smile hernia, the head of hamas is political bureau, has made the phone call to the cutlery prime minister, as well as to the egyptian minister of intelligence, ibis, cml, and quote, inform them of hamas is agreement to their proposal regarding a ceasefire agreements. now, as we understand it, there has been this latest egyptian framework

on the table which could see the release of between 20 to 33 israeli hostages over several weeks, that there would be weeks long pause in the fighting during that time, and that ultimately this would lead to a much longer-term cease fire, perhaps as long as a year, perhaps even longer and that is the proposal that was on the table. the israelis had made it the number of concessions in this that they previously had not agreed to, including allowing unrestricted return of palestinians to northern gaza. but this is a framework proposal and i'll understanding was that if hamas agreed to this, there would still be several more days, at least of negotiations in order to get to a final deal. so it appears that hamas here has agreed to the framework that the egyptians had put on the table it's not clear whether any changes have been made to that framework since it was first presented. hamas over the weekend. and so those are the kinds of details that are going to be really crucial to determining whether or not this is something that israel can

agree to and whether it can actually lead to a final deal. >> yeah, absolutely. and the way that we are learning about this from hamas first it's a reminder that so much of what is going on is about maneuvering and about leverage and about trying to push the other side into a situation based on whatever the discussions are right now behind the scenes. i know we were reporting earlier a couple of things. one is that president biden and israeli prime minister netanyahu did speak earlier today. and also what you have been reporting all day about the israelis being more aggressive in their public display of their intent to go into raffa, all of that, particularly going into rafah could've been real, but it also could have been a pressure point yeah there's no question that the israeli decision today to begin dropping leaflets on eastern rafah ordering about

100,000 civilians to begin fleeing that area evacuating northward. >> that that was intended to put enormous pressure on these negotiations, to put pressure on hamas whether or not that is what actually click interested and got hamas who agree to this proposal, we still don't yet know, dan. >> all right. jeremy, very, very significant development again, breaking news to just cross minutes ago, hamas says yes to a ceasefire proposal more on this fast-moving story ahead, cnn reporters are also still in the courtroom in new york following minute by minute action inside donald trump's hush money trial cnn special live coverage continues after a short break every weekday morning, cnn's five things has what you need to get going with. >> you're de, it's the five essential stories of the morning in five minutes or less cnn as five things with kate bolduan, streaming weekdays exclusively on macs. just looks

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